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Boundaries and Allies

(409 Posts)
DancingRaven Thu 06-Jun-19 07:44:09

I came across a post on Twitter which included what appears as a screenshot from a WhatsApp conversation with a gender critical ally. The image is attached for reference.

It is so disappointing to see this, are women's boundaries just amusing to everyone? How can we work together when our sex based rights are just 'politics'?

EmpressLesbianInChair Thu 06-Jun-19 07:47:49

I saw that too. I don’t think D Hayton’s responded yet.

It does leave a nasty taste, doesn’t it? I’ve seen DH at various events. Not pleasant to think we were being secretly laughed at.

BretonDinosaur Thu 06-Jun-19 07:52:14

I think it’s becoming clearer and clearer that our allies in this movement are manipulating us. Whether they’re men who say they’re men who want to control the narrative whilst getting women to do all the donkey work (research and fundraising) or men who say they’re women but not like those ones over there who behave in exactly the same way as TRAs just with a smile on their face.

Time to take the women’s movement back to women only imo.

OrchidInTheSun Thu 06-Jun-19 08:03:39

We can't trust men. I don't know why any women ever thought they could

KatnissEverbeen Thu 06-Jun-19 08:04:57

D. Hayton doesn't have a GRC so is self-id into womens single sex facilities while laughing at women's boundaries. Compels the children they teach to deny reality and use female pronouns. Doesn't sound like much of an ally.

AnyOldPrion Thu 06-Jun-19 08:05:03

Do you have a link to the tweet please? Is there more context?

DancingRaven Thu 06-Jun-19 08:06:27

It appeared on this thread about the latest prison allowing a man in the female estate.

twitter.com/DebbieHayton/status/1135917348353859585?s=19

SpartacusAutisticusAHF Thu 06-Jun-19 08:08:04

It's not exactly surprising is it?

KatnissEverbeen Thu 06-Jun-19 08:14:53

If Hayton is AGP then could you get more of a sexual turn on than putting your self in the women's movement?

Whatisthisfuckery Thu 06-Jun-19 08:17:44

I’ve had strong feelings about the platforming of DH and other so-called transsexuals all along. I’ve not always been popular for voicing them.

The only one who doesn’t get my spidey senses tingling is Miranda, because he has never claimed to be a woman.

Same with Glinner, although I think he has been a bit more misguided than duplicitous. He’s just a man who has a blind spot to his male privilege and socialisation. It’s unhelpful nevertheless and I wish women wouldn’t feel the need to centre men to placate other men.

DancingRaven Thu 06-Jun-19 08:31:57

I was personally surprised by the blatent amusement at women asserting their boundaries, especially taking these boundaries so lightly at feminist meetings about such matters and the outcomes.

I wasn't as surprised about the 'just politics' comment because of course they would feel like that, it's not their boundaries being trampled

Barracker Thu 06-Jun-19 08:35:57

Remember that thread last year, where Hayton was too busy to discuss why using female spaces where children and women had not consented was a complete breach of boundaries, and DH offered to chat about it over a beer, debate women's and girls consent with them, but intended to carry on regardless?

I'll stick to MN guidelines.
But I should mention that my thoughts do not.

My thoughts are that, HYPOTHETICALLY, if 5 years ago a middle aged man had announced he was entering any and every private female space, whether children were present and undressed, or not, knew we expressly did not consent to his presence, and didn't care?
Well, I expect no amount of evidence of future 'allyship' to women's and girls rights would cause women to overlook that abuse.
And I'm not sure that there would be anything that hypothetical man could do, grow his hair, wear a skirt, or have surgery, that would make it acceptable for him to impose himself on female children and grown women despite their emphatic demand he doesn't.

A man who hears women and girls say no to him, and pushes right past that no, because he thinks he's entitled, all the while laughing, and publicly claiming that other men should not be able to do the same, knowing that where he leads, all similar men will follow ....
What should that man be called?

SpartacusAutisticusAHF Thu 06-Jun-19 08:37:59

Absolutely Barracker 👏🏼

DancingRaven Thu 06-Jun-19 08:44:52

Excellent post, Barracker. Thank you

KatnissEverbeen Thu 06-Jun-19 08:46:10

Totally Barracker, all for sexual kicks.

Also, once again men think it is ok to debate what rights and boundaries women are allowed to have.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly Thu 06-Jun-19 08:50:22

It’s the gaslighting of Debbie’s pupils that troubles me most. That an experienced teacher would put children in a situation where they have to lie to appease adults

I find it quite upsetting

KatnissEverbeen Thu 06-Jun-19 08:52:27

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Datun Thu 06-Jun-19 09:01:39

Good title OP.

Allies respect boundaries. If they don't respect boundaries, they're not allies.

KatnissEverbeen Thu 06-Jun-19 09:25:55

Or should we be asking whose ally? Endorses self-id, supports compelled speech, infultraits women's groups but is friends with TRAs.

Germ1360 Thu 06-Jun-19 12:15:34

Yeah I remember reading an article about Debbie in Physics World and being somewhat annoyed by the lack of self-awareness, and was surprised to hear that DH was considered an ally. I expect others felt the same. Trust your instincts.

EmpressLesbianInChair Thu 06-Jun-19 12:19:14

Or should we be asking whose ally? Endorses self-id, supports compelled speech, infultraits women's groups but is friends with TRAs.

Hang on. Friends with TRAs?

terryleather Thu 06-Jun-19 12:55:13

I’ve had strong feelings about the platforming of DH and other so-called transsexuals all along.

The only one who doesn’t get my spidey senses tingling is Miranda, because he has never claimed to be a woman.

I agree with this.

MY is really the only one I have ever had any time for, MY really seems to have spent a long time thinking through it all and tried to seriously unpick their male socialisation and privilege.

How successful that can ever be I don't know, but I think I would be genuinely disappointed if MY turned out to not actually be an ally.

EmpressLesbianInChair Thu 06-Jun-19 13:02:24

If there's another side to the story I think we'd all appreciate hearing it.

AnotherLass Thu 06-Jun-19 13:07:52

Well, I'm GC but I really don't agree with what is being written here. I think that Debbie is a hero. And I agree with Debbie that toilets are a trivial issue. There are much more important issue at stake.

The fact of the matter is that there are some people who - for whatever reason - have unbearable gender dysphoria and find that medical transition and playacting being the other sex relieves it.

We have to find a way to reconcile that with the rights of other people. The TRAs say that all that matters is their feelings. And that is untenable. But it is equally untenable and fundamentalist on the other side to say that their feelings don't matter at all.

Trans people like Debbie Hayton show that there is a way to be trans and still consider other people's rights. And that is invaluable. I want to hear from people like her as much as possible.

ZuttZeVootEeeVro Thu 06-Jun-19 13:10:08

If Hayton was truly an ally to women and girls, Hayton would not behave in the way they do.

It's very easy to write up a good opinion piece in the times,but if they say one thing, and then do another, it's empty words.

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