Posie Parker's latest - Glasgow

[TheShadowyFeminist]

I wilted in the heat so missed the pub afterwards. But PP's comments on the 'fawning' I'm finding interesting. Because even at a meeting of women who are fighting for their rights, and the right to say no to any male, irrespective of identity, being given access to female only services/space/provision/sport etc. it seems that female socialisation kicks in when a male wears a dress.

I've been involved in this fight for a number of years now, and I've witnessed how the inclusion of males, irrespective of claimed gender identity, often shifts the tone, the balance, the atmosphere for women & limits what they will say/do to further their cause. It also means that some women who really need that female solidarity can't access it.

I think the 'fawning' is something that we al need to reflect on & work out why this is how some of us behave over someone who (as far as I'm aware) has failed to acknowledge their part in writing guidance for schools that breach female children's rights under the UNCRC.

I think we all need to 'be more Posie' in life & activism.

@DodoPatrol

and they should be allowed to use the toilets appropriate to the gender in which they are presenting

Why?

I wonder if their male colleagues ever find it insulting that it's presumed that they'd beat up a transwoman colleague if one were to use those facilities?

@TinselAngel do you remember me from your thread(s)? My AGP ex is a prominent lawyer (not THAT one) and was constantly flouting his 'feminist' credentials, actively campaigning for more female partners to be appointed blah blah. He doesn't really care about proportional representation - he's just completely obsessed with all things 'women'. I would even say it's not a foil - no one suspects. It's win win for him - he gets to come across as a champion, 'fawned' over and has the bonus of being 'woman centric' all very erotic...

Lots of lunches with 'the girls', lavish Xmas parties with the secretaries, gossip about sex lives etc all under the guise of being the partner who 'gets it' (and foots the bill for added 'heroism')
It's validation of a fetish in plain sight.

DH is doing the same

[quote Illaria]@TinselAngel do you remember me from your thread(s)? My AGP ex is a prominent lawyer (not THAT one) and was constantly flouting his 'feminist' credentials, actively campaigning for more female partners to be appointed blah blah. He doesn't really care about proportional representation - he's just completely obsessed with all things 'women'. I would even say it's not a foil - no one suspects. It's win win for him - he gets to come across as a champion, 'fawned' over and has the bonus of being 'woman centric' all very erotic...[/quote]
👋🏻

Of all the things that piss me off about Hayton, and they are manifold, the fact that DH has a completely self promoted position in the GC movement that offers nothing of worth to women and only benefits DH is really high up there.

@FloralBunting exactly this

@FloralBunting

Of all the things that piss me off about Hayton, and they are manifold, the fact that DH has a completely self promoted position in the GC movement that offers nothing of worth to women and only benefits DH is really high up there.

Well yes. The only thing that DH ever says is something that women are already saying. And have been all along.

Watched video with Benjamin Boyce admit skimmed through.

He part of the problem of why men treat women as worthless because so easy to be one after u lived male privilege incl having kids.

Women far from stupid so how did DH get foot in door to start with

I always wonder if his wife is glad spends so little time with him that she having some kind of happy life. Do think it’s him that does want her seen as attention not on him

Women far from stupid so how did DH get foot in door to start with

'A Woman's Place is a Sanctuary: Debbie Hayton (15 March 2018)

Side note: I think Posie’s criticism of the Spectator is not that fair.

They regularly have articles from Julie Bindel, DH and James Kirkup as well as others on GC topics. It’s a spread of writers and views. The magazine might feel it needs to address the accusation of transphobia and DH is a way of doing that.

If the magazine wants a discussion about a topic, then surely they can give a mix of views and authors? It seems fair and valid since here we are debating it and airing the ideas.

I agree with Posie. I was at this event and saw that DH was indeed fawned over by women. I think DH conceals AGP by not previously doing the typical sexualised clothing but this still does not mean that DH should have access to women's spaces etc. I think the clothing worn by DH at the event is moving closer to AGP type, presenting in short dress, fake breasts. I have no idea why DH gets fawned over. Frankly I would rather see DH's wife attend the event and hear her stories

Frankly I would rather see DH's wife attend the event and hear her stories

I wonder if she's ever been invited and declined? If she hasn't ever been invited in her own right then that's a glaring omission.

@PersonaNonGarter

Side note: I think Posie’s criticism of the Spectator is not that fair.

They regularly have articles from Julie Bindel, DH and James Kirkup as well as others on GC topics. It’s a spread of writers and views. The magazine might feel it needs to address the accusation of transphobia and DH is a way of doing that.

If the magazine wants a discussion about a topic, then surely they can give a mix of views and authors? It seems fair and valid since here we are debating it and airing the ideas.

It is not providing a spread of writers and views since Hayton became The Spectator's go-to reporter/commentator. It is worthwhile looking with fresh eyes at Hayton's articles.

(James Kirkup and Julie Bindel are journalists)

To be fair, it was not an invitation based event. But I imagine DH's presence somewhat excludes DH's wife.

@MiladyBerserko

To be fair, it was not an invitation based event. But I imagine DH's presence somewhat excludes DH's wife.

I meant more widely, beyond this specific event. And, yes, DH would need to be absent.

That's a hard set of circumstances - what with recordings and children in the picture.

Can I ask how you tell the difference between an AGP male and a male with gender dysphoria (that presents as female)?

@TheHandmadeTails

Can I ask how you tell the difference between an AGP male and a male with gender dysphoria (that presents as female)?

This might help.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

@EmbarrassingAdmissions

Frankly I would rather see DH's wife attend the event and hear her stories

I wonder if she's ever been invited and declined? If she hasn't ever been invited in her own right then that's a glaring omission.

Well it's never going to happen with the existing GC feminist groups because Hayton has carefully cultivated friendships and alliances with their leadership.

Indeed Tinsel and clearly DH has some sort of hero status. I dont know why. DH appears to support the GC (hate that term) position and reminds us often that they are a science teacher, but DH accesses women's spaces and is on record as being AGP - references above. So why does DH get the pass to women's spaces and not say, the lovely Alex with the beard at Stonewall?

Is it the clothes? Does granny chic provide the keys to women's rights?

I can only imagine Posie and Julia Long's reaction on the day as many of us were pissed off.

I've learned quite a lot about DH over the past week or so, prior to this my view was slightly coloured by the fact that I has a trans pal years ago, who was totally fine with every argument I put forward. My friend was dysphoric not AGP. You can understand my confusion.

However, I am no fan of Posie either, though she does some great things for this cause.

Women seem to faun over all sorts. Just look a the threads in praise of JKR (who I admire enormously - was that a faun). I have always thought this aspect of women was because of a lack of power.

@highame

I've learned quite a lot about DH over the past week or so, prior to this my view was slightly coloured by the fact that I has a trans pal years ago, who was totally fine with every argument I put forward. My friend was dysphoric not AGP. You can understand my confusion.

However, I am no fan of Posie either, though she does some great things for this cause.

Women seem to faun over all sorts. Just look a the threads in praise of JKR (who I admire enormously - was that a faun). I have always thought this aspect of women was because of a lack of power.

I think there are two clear differences between DH and JKR.

1. DH is a bloke and JKR is a woman.
2. DH's involvement in women's rights has bolstered his own career whereas it has actively harmed JKR's.

In short, I can see plenty of reasons why women 'fawn' over JKR and none at all why they might do the same to Hayton.

Can I add a third Clymene ?

3. DH's presence closes off a group or event to his wife and children, who have undoubtedly been harmed by his behaviour. It also closes those things off to women in similar circumstances to DH's wife

Most definitely agree Bernard a lot of us don't consider that as a huge consequence

A Woman's Place is a safe port (Debbie Hayton, Liverpool, 25th September 2018)

transcript
(extracts)
"I'm a trans rights activist campaigning for trans people who do face less favourable treatment in the workplace... trans self-identification poses huge risks to transsexual people. At risk is the social acceptance we're built up in recent years and much of that is informal and based on trust... I'm speaking from a transsexual perspective and I use that word deliberately, transsexual. Some people will seem to think it's archaic and antediluvian, but for me it has meaning. It implies somebody who has who has made or intends to make a meaningful transition that has been driven by gender dysphoria" (continues)

"A third point was to say that self-identification risks the informal social acceptance that transsexual people have built up in recent years. There was a thread on Mumsnet that some of you might have read, that went on for about 700 posts and I read it, yeah. But that's that's what I mean, I predicted this two years ago. I wrote in my blog two years ago that we're risking this acceptance. I'm seeing with my own eyes and the reason is it's because people are concerned" (continues)

"We need to protect women and girls from male violence, oppression and intimidation and sex segregation is central to many safeguarding policies. How do you divide society if it's not strictly by biological sex?

Now for years transsexuals have been quietly included by women, either as a right if we have a GRC or by consent in many cases like in my own where there is no GRC. In real life women do include me in those spaces because they said they want me to be there.

But I suspect some in the room may think that this is an imposition and I see where people are coming from. I'm happy to debate this point in the pub later with people.

But what I would say is the gatekeeping involved in the medical reports within the present gender recognition act offer safeguards against abuse and reassures society. Sweep those safeguards away and we're left in different territory. If any male person can become a female person just because they say so then some will be tempted to do it for nefarious purposes.

I hear the argument that men wouldn't, wouldn't do that. Well I was a man for long enough to know that some men definitely would do that and that they're precisely the men that women need to worry about. And they're also the men that transsexuals need to worry about as well. Abusers will take opportunities wherever safeguarding is weakest and every time someone abuses the system then its our credibility that's being damaged. Women say how can I trust you?" (continues)

In real life women do include me in those spaces because they said they want me to be there

what, all of them? aye right

DH's position is fundamentally irrational. He says that most men shouldn't be in women's spaces, but he should. Effectively he thinks that men should get to chose who women should have to share their spaces with.

His position and indeed his actions are at their heart the same as those of Jessica Yaniv or Danielle Muscato, he just uses longer words