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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Transgender weightlifting

221 replies

Husbandno3 · 26/06/2021 17:07

I like to think of myself as a feminist.
I’m there was in interesting feature on BBC radio 4s woman’s hour about transgender athletes and inclusion in the olympics.
The programme featured some new research and an interview with the researcher, that suggests that there are significant biochemical differences between trans women and women that may mean they have an unfair advantage.
Controversially the Olympic committee have recently permitted the inclusion of trans athletes in certain sports. The one that has made the newspapers is a trans female athlete from New Zealand that will be competing in the upcoming olympics.
My position is that I do not feel there is any reason to not be as inclusive as possible in any walks of life to trans women, however, in some competitive sports such as weightlifting, where it could convey an unfair advantage, it might not be appropriate. (These appeared to be similar thoughts to the radio 4 presenter by the way, based on the research that was published)
I wondered what others thoughts were on this.

OP posts:
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WoolOfBat · 27/06/2021 11:41

Ssshhh GCAcademic, OP identifies as a feminist and wants to chat to other feminists. If we don’t validate the OP’s identity, the OP will be very sad.

OP, I am with you! I happen to identify as a tax collector. I will set up a page to which you can transfer a small proportion of your earnings. If you don’t validate my self-identification, I will be very sad….

Ekofisk · 27/06/2021 11:59

The yougov poll that gets flung around shows that in general people want others to be able to live their lives, until they have to answer a question about how this works in reality. The question about males accessing female toilets while they still have a penis.

Yes, most people are “be kind” (although responses were clear that trans women should not be competing in women’s sport) until the question is redefined to specify that gender reassignment surgery has not been undertaken.

Transgender weightlifting
Datun · 27/06/2021 12:25

I don’t think posting pictures of the weightlifter is relevant. What you look like physically is not something we should be judging people on.

I'm not judging this person's personality on their looks. I don't need to. We know that they are a violent multiple rapist and self-confessed paedophile. They raped a pregnant woman, who I believe now may be unable to have children.

What I would like you to do, op, is imagine what the incarcerated women he assaulted in a female prison were thinking when this person was housed with them.

Transgender weightlifting
andyoldlabour · 27/06/2021 13:29

Helleofabore - great posts.

I am a bloke who is also a qualified personal trainer. I have been mad about and played sports since I was very young.
The worst thing people are tending to do nowadays, is to conflate gender and sex. Sports should be categorised primarily by sex, meaning male and female, it is that simple, or should be.
The case of Caster Semenya has been mentioned and some people still seem to be unaware that Caster and the other two athletes on the women's 800m podium at Rio 2016, all had the same 46XY DSD, meaning they are male. What many people are unaware of is that the IOC/IAAF were aware of this since 2009.
The other important event was the IOC Concensus Meeting 2015, which laid down the rules for intersex and transgender athletes competing in the women's category. They were IMHO unduly influenced by a deeply flawed study carried out by one Joanna Harper.
They focussed entirely on Testosterone levels, totally ignoring the massive differences in physiology between males and females.
Males have larger hearts and lungs, plus more oxygen producing red blood cells, leading to a more efficient cardio vascular syste. Males have longer, more dense bone structure, they have less fat and leaner muscle mass. They are able to build muscle more effectively than females.
Therefore allowances have to be made for female sport. In throwing events, the shot, hammer, discus and javelin are all lighter. The hurdles are lower. In cricket, women cricketers use lighter bats, smaller, lighter balls. In volleyball the net is lower.
In most athletic events, there is roughly a 10% difference between men's and women's records.
Roughly fifteen thousand men have run faster than the women's marathon record and sixteen year old boys have run faster than the women's 100m record.

stillmed.olympic.org/Documents/Commissions_PDFfiles/Medical_commission/2015-11_ioc_consensus_meeting_on_sex_reassignment_and_hyperandrogenism-en.pdf

Moving away from sport, there are obvious reasons (to anyone with an ounce of empathy) why women need their own safe spaces, where males will not be present - toilets, changing rooms, hospital wards, refuges, prisons, recreational facilities where they can feel safe.
Why do I say "obvious reasons"?
Because women face violence from men. The vast majority of violent offenders in prisons are men as are the vast majority of domestic abusers.
I don't really care how someone identifies as long as they are not causing distress to anyone else.
Males who are trying gain access to female safe spaces, by identifying as women are going to cause fear and distress to the women in those spaces.

Husbandno3 · 27/06/2021 13:40

I am not on here to ‘lecture’ anyone about your own rights. I post here (actually on AIBU - which got moved here) because we have someone to look after, and the debate surrounding current affairs is generally quite interesting for me from people who are also in similar situations.
For me, this topic arose due to a radio show I was listening to, and my initial post was ASKING for others input and thoughts on the subject NOT telling anyone how they should live their lives.
I merely stated my position so others wouldn’t feel they had to go first.

should someone with a penis get changed next to teenaged girls?
*if that person with a penis doesn’t not recognise that penis OR is sexually aroused from seeing teenage girls changing. I don’t personally see the issue if this was, for example, a female changing room at a gym.
If you follow that line, (I feel) it’s ridiculous, as it’s like you are arguing that homosexuals should use separate facilities as they might eg ‘peak over the urinal and get a boner’

should a biological woman who has been raped be able to refuse a smear test (unchaperoned) from someone with a penis?
*completely, thats precisely why in the NHS it’s common practice of offer a chaperone. If you are accessing free healthcare unfortunately (my personal viewpoint) is that you probably don’t have a right to dictate who your care is from, in terms of race, sec, gender, or age. You should, however ALWAYS have a right to access a chaperone and someone competent.

should a biological woman in jail have to share a cell with someone with a penis and a history of commuting sexual assault/rape with that penis?
*if someone has been convicted of rape - ie putting your penis in someone’s hole, then no I don’t think that’s appropriate at all. But the real question is, is it appropriate that anyone (male female or trans) have to share a space with a rapist in a cell?

Also, and I am prepared to be argued wrong, but I don’t think that my sexual/dating preferences have anything to do with equality or acceptance. If I am not attracted to a particular race, or age range or hair colour (because it physically doesn’t turn me on) doesn’t make me a rascist/ageist/redheadish ect. It’s just not what particularly turns me personally on. If a trans women looked attractive enough to turn me on physically. I absolutely, 100% would desire to date them.

OP posts:
CuriousaboutSamphire · 27/06/2021 13:41

@JustLost101

Maybe check out the relevant board and I'm sure you will find reference to this subject on almost any of the threads
You do know that the separate board only exists because people on and off MN lobbied for it to be separated!?

It's just feminism that points out that women are female?

Sophoclesthefox · 27/06/2021 14:00

if that person with a penis doesn’t not recognise that penis OR is sexually aroused from seeing teenage girls changing. I don’t personally see the issue if this was, for example, a female changing room at a gym

Can you have another go at this sentence, please, because they way I read it, you’re endorsing men getting sexually aroused in changing rooms with teenage girls Confused and suggesting that some men “don’t recognise” their penises (have they put on a disguise or something?). Very confusing.

Also, please don’t refer to women’s genitals as “holes”. Not something a “feminist” would do. You may have posted in AIBU, but you’re here now, in the viper pit. Blame MNHQ for moving your thread if it’s made your thread go in directions you didn’t expect…

CuriousaboutSamphire · 27/06/2021 14:05

Husband date and have sex? You would have sex with anyone depending on how attractive they appear regardless if their sex?

So you are bisexual then? Nothing unusual in that.

All the rest of your pfaffing about recognising penis is just blather. You are deliberately ignoring the most basic of facts - size for size, weight for weight men are faster and stronger than women; men are responsible for 98% of violent crime, regardless of who the victim is.

You are a man. You do something that rather than insisting women should.

Congressdingo · 27/06/2021 14:16

completely, thats precisely why in the NHS it’s common practice of offer a chaperone. If you are accessing free healthcare unfortunately (my personal viewpoint) is that you probably don’t have a right to dictate who your care is from, in terms of race, sec, gender, or age. You should, however ALWAYS have a right to access a chaperone and someone competent

You wont get a chaperone simply because twaw, how do you not get this yet?

Congressdingo · 27/06/2021 14:19

if someone has been convicted of rape - ie putting your penis in someone’s hole, then no I don’t think that’s appropriate at all. But the real question is, is it appropriate that anyone (male female or trans) have to share a space with a rapist in a cell
Hole??? Showing yourself up there, we are not holes thank you.

And the rest is transphobic, twaw, get it yet?
We get no choice in this, we wont go to prison and ask for no tw, that would be transphobic and get us cancelled and more likely to have to share with a tw.

Congressdingo · 27/06/2021 14:21

Also, and I am prepared to be argued wrong, but I don’t think that my sexual/dating preferences have anything to do with equality or acceptance
While any woman is being told how transphobic they are for not wanting lady dick, your sexual and dating preferences are everyone's business. You dont go telling women who to fuck and we will have no issue with who you want to fuck.

334bu · 27/06/2021 14:34

👋👋 Congressdingo.

WoolOfBat · 27/06/2021 14:52

@ @Husbandno3 so we agree to a large extent ?

Re changing rooms, as the transwoman who tweeted that they were excited about being in a women’s shelter. As they posted a picture of themselves with an erection, they shouldn’t be there?

www.womenarehuman.com/male-transgender-boasts-of-harassing-women-in-crisis-shelter/

How do I deal with this practically, do I look for people with erections when I am taking my 12-year old daughter swimming? And if I spot them, do I take a picture so I can get them out (proof)?

smear tests. NHS considers TWAW, so no chaperone and you are not allowed to ask for a biological woman. A woman who had been sexually abused was labelled a transphobe for asking for a biological woman. I am please that you agree with us that this is wrong.

Jails: I don’t like your language, but ok. There are several instances of transwomen who are rapists (with their penis) who have been put in women’s jails. There have been several instances of sexual assault due to this. In California they have to share cells. I am happy that you also find this completely unreasonable.

As to dating, I didn’t bring this up, but. You do you, date/have sex with whomever you want. But lesbians are being told that they are being transphobic for not having sex with transwomen with penises. They should “get over it”. I think that is rapey. And homophobic. I wouldn’t dream of telling a gay man that even though I had the body of a woman, he should have sex with me or be a bigot.

Helleofabore · 27/06/2021 15:07

Well. Calling a vagina a ‘hole’ actually is a classic MRA and incel language. Thanks for your honesty.

Helleofabore · 27/06/2021 15:18

should someone with a penis get changed next to teenaged girls?
-if that person with a penis doesn’t not recognise that penis OR is sexually aroused from seeing teenage girls changing. I don’t personally see the issue if this was, for example, a female changing room at a gym.
If you follow that line, (I feel) it’s ridiculous, as it’s like you are arguing that homosexuals should use separate facilities as they might eg ‘peak over the urinal and get a boner’

In most of your answers you seem to ignore the needs of traumatised women and girls who need male free single sex spaces. Spaces where the presence of males, regardless of how they look, will cause significant distress and the loss of these spaces will mean they are excluded. And I mean that males are discernible even if they ‘pass’.

So, therefore males forcing their presence in female single sex spaces traumatises females already traumatised by males.

Not sure why so many people who call themselves feminists prioritise male’s needs over females like this.

DrSbaitso · 27/06/2021 16:04

Applauding @Congressdingo, @WoolOfBat and @Helleofabore.

Outhere · 27/06/2021 16:06

should someone with a penis get changed next to teenaged girls?
*if that person with a penis doesn’t not recognise that penis OR is sexually aroused from seeing teenage girls changing. I don’t personally see the issue if this was, for example, a female changing room at a gym.
If you follow that line, (I feel) it’s ridiculous, as it’s like you are arguing that homosexuals should use separate facilities as they might eg ‘peak over the urinal and get a boner’

^ This, a long with your 'hole' comment is very telling. If I asked any male member of my family this question they would recoil in horror. They aren't offended by a single sex space which gate keeps them out of it, they applaud it. And any man who doesn't makes me raise an eyebrow.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 27/06/2021 16:09

@Helleofabore

Well. Calling a vagina a ‘hole’ actually is a classic MRA and incel language. Thanks for your honesty.
Thanks for that. I tried to reply but couldn't think of anything less offensive than an instruction that would get me deleted.
Congressdingo · 27/06/2021 16:10

@DrSbaitso

Applauding *@Congressdingo, @WoolOfBat and @Helleofabore*.
Why thank you,
Helleofabore · 27/06/2021 16:14

If you follow that line, (I feel) it’s ridiculous, as it’s like you are arguing that homosexuals should use separate facilities as they might eg ‘peak over the urinal and get a boner’

I’d also like to point out that you have again not come back with even any acknowledgement about the UK crime stats we have provided, nor how you see this working with safeguarding for women or children.

I do thank you though. People who are reading along with this thread are seeing this lack of acknowledgement, this lack of being able to connect the points together and are making their own realisations.

Particularly around the use of ‘hole’ as the word for vagina and your assertion as to your feminist status.

Helleofabore · 27/06/2021 16:15

I hear you curious. I hear you.

TheRebelle · 27/06/2021 17:14

Hole? Redheadish?

Also, the NHS isn’t free, we pay for it through our taxes.

PronounssheRa · 27/06/2021 17:32

In most of your answers you seem to ignore the needs of traumatised women and girls who need male free single sex spaces

It's fairly obvious the needs of women and girls hasn't been on the OPs radar at all. I hope this has given him something to think about.

NiceGerbil · 27/06/2021 23:27

Just catching up. In response to an earlier comment-

'i don’t believe it makes sense in other areas, such as employment, to have ringfenced trans person jobs, female jobs and male jobs. Or universities, or anything really.'

100% disagree. Very few roles exercise the single sex exemption. And it needs to be proportionate so you can't do it without good reason.

I think that things like

A help service for transgender people

A support group for men who have had surgery due to testticular Cancer

Are much much much better, and more accessible, if they are run by, in the first case a trans person and in the second case a man.

I cannot understand why you think that doesn't make sense? Can you explain a bit more?

NiceGerbil · 27/06/2021 23:29

'What you look like physically is not something we should be judging people on.'

Fact is we do and sometimes it's pretty important for humans to be able to recognise sex.

If you are a victim of crime and need to give a description of the criminal

If you are a doctor in A&E and an unconscious patient comes in

If you are someone selecting for a basketball team and you are looking for talent and also people who are tall...

I think maybe I misunderstood what you meant?