Transgender weightlifting

[Husbandno3]

I like to think of myself as a feminist.
I’m there was in interesting feature on BBC radio 4s woman’s hour about transgender athletes and inclusion in the olympics.
The programme featured some new research and an interview with the researcher, that suggests that there are significant biochemical differences between trans women and women that may mean they have an unfair advantage.
Controversially the Olympic committee have recently permitted the inclusion of trans athletes in certain sports. The one that has made the newspapers is a trans female athlete from New Zealand that will be competing in the upcoming olympics.
My position is that I do not feel there is any reason to not be as inclusive as possible in any walks of life to trans women, however, in some competitive sports such as weightlifting, where it could convey an unfair advantage, it might not be appropriate. (These appeared to be similar thoughts to the radio 4 presenter by the way, based on the research that was published)
I wondered what others thoughts were on this.

I have the same amount of respect for Hubbard as I would if one of the women turned up to the completion with a crane.

I have no respect for any man who tried to identify themselves into women’s sports or women’s places generally, I think it shows a lot of disrespect towards women to not even consider their needs for fair competition, safety, privacy & dignity.

I clearly have misunderstood, Notwavingbutdrowing3. You seem to be telling women to be respectful to those who are elbowing them out of sex segregated spaces without them providing any evidence as to why this should happen. I'm all ears and will respectfully consider credible research (and even less credible!) for such fundamental societal changes, but they don't seem to be forthcoming.

What would the discussion look like if it were as you wish?

@Wardenmammy

There is no reason sports like this should be separated by gender, so being trans really shouldn't make a difference 🤷🏻‍♀️

Men are not allowed to do synchronised swimming.

Women do the heptathlon, men do decathlon. They are not allowed to do the one for the other sex.

In gymnastics the women's and men's disciplines are different.

In the winter Olympics, the women have not been allowed to do the biggest ski jump. I think the first time will be at the next one.

I assume you find this pretty concerning given your strong stance on equality.

Any thoughts on that?

The worry I have always had is that when it comes to sports

Men are interested in sports
Cheating really pisses people off
Playing fair is a fundamental
When you see trans inclusion in practice. The differences in strength, speed, often size are difficult to ignore

My concern is that the 'compromise' given to women will be sports but everything else- prisons etc- will stay the same.

In the USA where sport is one way out of a life with not so many opportunities. Talented young sportspeople can get scholarships to university (otherwise very expensive). Inclusion means girls who would have got those opportunities being pushed out.

The thing that gets on my tits is that they wrote the rules with a starting position of wanting to have rules that let some transwomen compete with women.

The giveaway is that they decided testosterone is the only difference between men and women (??!!) and the levels that say how low s transwomans must be are at the bottom of normal for men. And 3 to 4 times higher than the top end of normal for women.

I too look forward to some new evidence being presented to support the inclusion of males in the female sport category.

In the meantime, to support the OPs initial post

Here is a different study that shows that transwomen who have had the benefit of male puberty should not be allowed access to the female sports category. This time from USAF

bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/11/577

Timothy A Roberts, Joshua Smalley, Dale Ahrendt

Effect of gender affirming hormones on athletic performance in transwomen and transmen: implications for sporting organisations and legislators

Summary The 15–31% athletic advantage that transwomen displayed over their female counterparts prior to starting gender affirming hormones declined with feminising therapy. However, transwomen still had a 9% faster mean run speed after the 1 year period of testosterone suppression that is recommended by World Athletics for inclusion in women’s events.

It is interesting reading as it also leaves the suggestion that even after 3 years advantage still exists.

And Sean Ingle’s take on it.

www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/dec/07/study-suggests-ioc-adjustment-period-for-trans-women-may-be-too-short

The thing I find bizarre with all of this

That is just grotesque misogyny

Is that these things have all been done. Everyone knows the differences between men and women. Everyone. But these changes were made. And now WOMEN have to prove they are unfair.

Why didn't it have to be proved they were fair before the changes?

And even if they could be. Women's sport is about more than that. It's about women showing their strength power etc. Camaraderie of the team. Women only together. I can't express it properly.

And here are some elite female gymnasts watching males doing Olympic level routines.

Just so people connect the dots, males who transition do not lose their musculature advantage that allows them to perform these routines and more. They also retain their strength advantage.

It has been also disputed that with training any reduction in performance may be counted and even bettered with testosterone suppression.

Hence this video showing males without testosterone suppress, is still appropriate for males who have transitioned.

Thanks for your comments all and the links to the articles (especially the bjsm one)
A few points I was wondering:
-For those who do not believe that trans women should be included in female spaces in society or sport, if a trans women does not want to be included in a male space, do you think we (as society) should be creating their own space? And do you think that will lead to more division rather than reducing discrimination.
-for those who agree that male and female sporting performance is different (such as the info graphic posted) and sport shouldn’t be matched on sex, how do you feel about sports that do not match them eg uk darts? Should we be separating them out? Cause IMO that creates an unlevel playing field for women in a situation where the biological difference doesn’t actually matter.
-for those of you who believe that all/the majority of trans people are committing violent hate crimes, I’m sure there may be a website of both male and female violent crimes that have been committed in the last year. The website you highlighted must represent a minority of people and I don’t (my personal viewpoint) believe it’s conducive to an inclusive society to highlight the crimes of one gender/race/sex/age bracket ect.

Highlighting isn't the same as asking the police and the ONS to gather accurate data on criminal activity.

Sex does matter in darts.

@Husbandno3

Thanks for your comments all and the links to the articles (especially the bjsm one) A few points I was wondering: -For those who do not believe that trans women should be included in female spaces in society or sport, if a trans women does not want to be included in a male space, do you think we (as society) should be creating their own space? And do you think that will lead to more division rather than reducing discrimination. -for those who agree that male and female sporting performance is different (such as the info graphic posted) and sport shouldn’t be matched on sex, how do you feel about sports that do not match them eg uk darts? Should we be separating them out? Cause IMO that creates an unlevel playing field for women in a situation where the biological difference doesn’t actually matter. -for those of you who believe that all/the majority of trans people are committing violent hate crimes, I’m sure there may be a website of both male and female violent crimes that have been committed in the last year. The website you highlighted must represent a minority of people and I don’t (my personal viewpoint) believe it’s conducive to an inclusive society to highlight the crimes of one gender/race/sex/age bracket ect.

Crikey Mikey.

You seem pretty invested in this for someone with no skin in the game!

To answer your points:

One.

The female only things that exist are for privacy, safety, comfort. They are places where we are vulnerable. They are places where we want to be away from the male gaze, the male domination of space, the risk of pervy weirdy behaviour that a large minority of men engage in.

Prisons
Communal changing
Toilets where it's cubicles with gaps, in a larger room.
Having medical things done that mean taking your knickers off, lying on a bed and spreading your legs
Hospital wards, mental health facilities

Yes of course unisex/ gender neutral facilities would be fine in addition to the male and female one. That is what I would have expected the very well funded and well supported charities like stonewall to fight for. They aren't though. That's not what's wanted. What's wanted is all of these things to be open based on self ID. Remember that gender ID and presentation are different. You can be a woman inside but have a 'masc' presentation.

Then there's the fact that all over the place with bogs the ladies has had sign changed to anyone, the gents is still the gents. Despite the fact that women already don't have enough facilities.

for those of you who believe that all/the majority of trans people are committing violent hate crimes

Seriously? So transparent.

@Letsallscreamatthesistene

I actually am a competitive weightlifter and its so demoralising. Whats the point in all the training?

To be better to achieve and for personal goals

Husbandno3

There is no comparable website of violent crimes committed by women. Ninety eight percent of all sex crimes are committed by men. Ninety percent of all violent crimes are committed by men. Men saying that they now identify as women makes no difference to that.

Half of all transwomen in prison are there for sex offences.

No one believes that the majority of transwomen are committing hate crimes. You've just made that up.

They have male pattern behaviour and male pattern violence.

But, as usual, it's all about the transwomen, and what they want and need. Does it ever occur to you, for even a nanosecond, to imagine a woman locked in a cell with a male rapist? Would you like to try and justify it?

In terms of spaces, I don't really care, as long as female spaces are ring fenced. But, of course, the obvious solution is a third, gender neutral space. For any transwomen who are uncomfortable in the male space, and the same for transmen, and indeed anyone else who doesn't mind mixed spaces.

'how do you feel about sports that do not match them eg uk darts? Should we be separating them out? Cause IMO that creates an unlevel playing field for women in a situation where the biological difference doesn’t actually matter.'

This is a bit random?

In the rules of loads of sports the men's is actually open. Just no women qualify etc.

Darts and snooker are.. I'm not sure I'd describe them as sports although there is massive skill involved. They are open in theory. But where are the women competing at the top levels? Not there. Why?

S combination of things.

I love snooker. The fact that men tend to be taller than women, with longer arms is an obvious advantage.

I'm 5'3 and on a snooker table.. I mean they're massive. I feel like an 8yo trying to do it!

Nevertheless for the first time 2 women are on the top ranking men's tour! Brilliant!!!

I'm not really sure of your point here. Where sports are open, then. You think they would need to be changed?

Is this a 'be careful what you wish for' warning or something?

That if women manage to get eg rugby single sex then we'll be banned from playing s game of pool against a bloke in the pub or something?

I think if we are to be inclusive we should create a separate category in the olympics: female, male and trans. Because trans people will always either be advantaged or disadvantaged in the other groups. But together MTF and FTM may be more alike, one has the biological advantage other the hormonal supplement.

do you think that will lead to more division rather than reducing discrimination

Just because I don’t believe that transwomen are women and I don’t respect their belief that they are doesn’t mean I think they should be discriminated against, refusing males participation in women’s sport is not discrimination in the illegal sense.

Transwomen ARE different to women, everyone knows this, women shouldn’t have to give up their right to sport or other spaces because males have a feeling that they’re women, especially when they can’t even articulate what “woman” feels like without reducing it to sexist stereotypes.

Three

'for those of you who believe that all/the majority of trans people are committing violent hate crimes, I’m sure there may be a website of both male and female violent crimes that have been committed in the last year. The website you highlighted must represent a minority of people and I don’t (my personal viewpoint) believe it’s conducive to an inclusive society to highlight the crimes of one gender/race/sex/age bracket ect.'

No one thinks the majority of trans people are committing violent crimes!

My DD age 13 is in s friendship group at school of about 8 girls, they all have a trans ID of one sort or another. The idea anyone would think they are violent criminals is, well, very unlikely!

Why did you post that? Where did you get the idea that anyone would generalise like that?

And now we get to the main point.

It's wrong to look at crime statistically by any kind of group. People are people.

It seems to be people from a certain group who want this. Not sure why.

So back to headlines.

Uighar people sexually abused by other people in camps.

Rebels attack village, kidnap young people. Some young people will be forced to fight and some to marry their kidnappers.

And more generally (because if crime why not everything else?).

Some people more likely to die from covid than some other people.

900000 people killed fighting for Britain in ww1.

In X country only 50% of children receive an education to age 14. (100% boys 0% girls, but let's not say that).

-For those who do not believe that trans women should be included in female spaces in society or sport, if a trans women does not want to be included in a male space, do you think we (as society) should be creating their own space?

I think if they feel they cannot be in male spaces for whatever reason, they should be campaigning for their own spaces. The fact that decades ago they were told (it seems to have been by male doctors and therapists) to use female spaces was never run past the females who were using the spaces. Not has it been ever confirmed with us now but conferred as some kind of ‘all welcome’ zone.

This is not a woman’s issue to solve, it was always a men’s issue. Women are saying no enmasse and those willing to give away women’s single sex spaces STILL do not have the authority to do so if one group of women still say they need them to be single sex. (And there is actually more than one group saying they still need it).

I am interested why men think they should have any right at all to dictate whether they have or ever had the right to tell women to let a subset of males that they (men) rejected from their spaces into theirs.

-for those who agree that male and female sporting performance is different (such as the info graphic posted) and sport shouldn’t be matched on sex, how do you feel about sports that do not match them eg uk darts? Should we be separating them out? Cause IMO that creates an unlevel playing field for women in a situation where the biological difference doesn’t actually matter.

In no sports do males not have an advantage over women though. Even in darts, there are physical advantages. How many women are in the top 100? Equestrian may be different because there is a horse involved.

What other sports do you think sex doesn’t matter?

-for those of you who believe that all/the majority of trans people are committing violent hate crimes, I’m sure there may be a website of both male and female violent crimes that have been committed in the last year. The website you highlighted must represent a minority of people and I don’t (my personal viewpoint) believe it’s conducive to an inclusive society to highlight the crimes of one gender/race/sex/age bracket ect.

I can safely say that I have not come across one regular poster who believes that the majority of males who identify as a woman are committing violent crime. That tactic of using such hyperbole is usually the domain of trans rights activists who come and make outrageous remarks about women discussing their rights.

However, it is a fact that 98% of sexy offences in the uk are committed by MALES. (Of course this also doesn’t imply 98 % of males are sex offenders). And there is NO study that proves that transitioning changes the male propensity to commit crimes at the same rate as males who are not trans. And if you look at the % of transitioned males who are in prison in the uk at the moment for sex crimes, it is a very very high %.

Please tell us for safeguarding purposes, why would anyone ignore the statistics and the lack of evidence to the contrary and change safeguarding to be more accommodating to a subset of males?

I am sorry. Your personal assurances do not reassure me that any adult male should have access to female single sexual spaces or be treated differently for safeguarding purposes, whatever that safeguarding need is.

What reason do you have to support lowering women and children’s boundaries like that?

And at an individual level.

A person flashed at me on the way home from school today.
S person came up to me after school and tried to get me to go with him.
A person shouted abuse about my body while I was doing the shopping.
The person I am going out with who is much older met me from school and we went to see their friends and they gave me alcohol and raped me.

Who does it benefit to obscure the sex of... People? Especially when it comes to sex offences?

Why do you, a man. Want to obscure /hide/ minimise the fact that women and girls all over the world are subjected to s massive range of sexually motivated crimes, from 'minor' to torture rape and murder, just as a thing that is just one of those things.

Why do you want that? Why is it good.

'To be better to achieve and for personal goals'

Seriously?

Blimey.

Just that nicegerbil. Just all of that

In some countries some 200 million people have FGM.

who are these people ?

@Fairdosmun

for those of you who believe that all/the majority of trans people are committing violent hate crimes

Seriously? So transparent.

It is isnt it

I don’t believe i have ever read a post saying that ‘all/ the majority of trans people are committing violent hate crimes’….ever!

@Husbandno3

Thanks for your comments all and the links to the articles (especially the bjsm one) A few points I was wondering: -For those who do not believe that trans women should be included in female spaces in society or sport, if a trans women does not want to be included in a male space, do you think we (as society) should be creating their own space? And do you think that will lead to more division rather than reducing discrimination. -for those who agree that male and female sporting performance is different (such as the info graphic posted) and sport shouldn’t be matched on sex, how do you feel about sports that do not match them eg uk darts? Should we be separating them out? Cause IMO that creates an unlevel playing field for women in a situation where the biological difference doesn’t actually matter. -for those of you who believe that all/the majority of trans people are committing violent hate crimes, I’m sure there may be a website of both male and female violent crimes that have been committed in the last year. The website you highlighted must represent a minority of people and I don’t (my personal viewpoint) believe it’s conducive to an inclusive society to highlight the crimes of one gender/race/sex/age bracket ect.

Oh, what would we poor women have done without you, the great voice of reason. Tell me, why are you not casting your pearls to the violent misogynists on Twitter?

• Where sex matters, I'd like to see male spaces, female spaces and a third open space for anyone who, for whatever reason, doesn't want to use the space for their sex. I don't think this creates division, as people have a choice and it's not for trans people, just those who for whatever reason don't want to use the sex segregated one. Can't wait to see how many natal women use them, or for your arse about face explanations as to why. But they're a fair solution that take nothing away from women and allow people a choice.

-Darts is sex segregated. Men have greater throwing power. You do not know enough to be posting on this subject.

• Nice try. The problem isn't that we think trans people are all committing violent crime. (By the way, which sex class do you think is perpetuating the most violent crime on trans people? Go on, take a wild guess. I'll wait. And how many websites frequented by members of that sex class are you lecturing about inclusiveness and niceness?) We are saying that as our rights and protections are eroded, the way becomes clear for violent men to gain access to us by merely claiming they are women. It's already happened. Believe me, if you were a woman, you'd have an awareness of the level of threat and you wouldn't need to be told. The ignorance you display about it frankly makes you utterly unfit to comment on it. You heard of #MeToo, I assume. Gotta love the way you ask for stats, are given them and then decide the website isn't right.

So, are you straight? If so, are you inclusive enough to sleep with transwomen?

do you think that will lead to more division rather than reducing discrimination

You do realise some discrimination is for the purpose of fairness, don’t you?

Do you believe an adult should be able to compete in the under 16s?

Do you believe a 20 year old should be able to compete with a 70 year old?

Do you believe an able bodied person should be able to compete in the Paralympics?

Why do you think males and females were separated in the first place?

Why do you think males ever should be able to compete with females? Please read the Lundberg and Hilton review, it includes an Australian school children study and a Greek study that shows even 6 year old males have advantages over females of same age.

Also, why is it women’s burden to eliminate discrimination by males? Male transitioners are male. Why should it be up to women to fix male on male discrimination?

Please be very clear what has happened to these males that has made them have female bodies rather than male bodies?