Transgender weightlifting

[Husbandno3]

I like to think of myself as a feminist.
I’m there was in interesting feature on BBC radio 4s woman’s hour about transgender athletes and inclusion in the olympics.
The programme featured some new research and an interview with the researcher, that suggests that there are significant biochemical differences between trans women and women that may mean they have an unfair advantage.
Controversially the Olympic committee have recently permitted the inclusion of trans athletes in certain sports. The one that has made the newspapers is a trans female athlete from New Zealand that will be competing in the upcoming olympics.
My position is that I do not feel there is any reason to not be as inclusive as possible in any walks of life to trans women, however, in some competitive sports such as weightlifting, where it could convey an unfair advantage, it might not be appropriate. (These appeared to be similar thoughts to the radio 4 presenter by the way, based on the research that was published)
I wondered what others thoughts were on this.

@Wardenmammy

No misunderstanding, sports like this shouldn't be separated by sex or gender. You just change how it's assessed.

Example: boxing is matched by weight and ability. Add this to other sports, base it on muscle mass, weight, height etc

It's so funny to me that some of you get your knickers in a twist over something that really doesn't matter all that much 🤣

1. Men and women of the same height and weight aren’t equally matched.
2. Boxing is matched by sex first then height and weight categories, I’d go up against a heavier woman than an equally weighted man any day of the week!
3. You think the Olympics doesn’t matter all that much? It certainly does to those who train their whole lives to get there.

Controversially the Olympic committee have recently permitted the inclusion of trans athletes in certain sports.

Trans athletes have always been allowed in nearly all sports ( provided they're not on performance enhancing meds, obv).

In fact, a transwoman was able to win gold in a sport no other woman is allowed to participate in - the decathlon. You've heard of Cailyn Jenner, presumably?

I've read all of this thread and I think it is going off topic.
I don't think this is a thread about safe female spaces etc

OP is a biological male who expressed the view that he felt is potentially unfair for a sex-biologically born male (presumably who went through male puberty etc with all the biological advantages in bone density, muscle development and lung development) to compete later against biologically born women, by identifying gender as a woman later on?

It's a real debate and should hear from all sides, even if you disagree. Because if we shut down anyone it will never get air time nor be debated fairly.

I agree that biological advantage should be considered and it is hard to reconcile that with wanting to be inclusive to our sisters, trans women. Same as it is hard to reconcile that with what seems to be a biological advantage that presents as unfair.

Our sisters?

@Husbandno3

I am biologically, and identify as a man. I do not believe it’s right that if you identify as a woman, (whatever your biological characteristics) you should be excluded from areas of life that you wish to enter. For many people, it’s not a choice how they identify. Not wanting to be accepted as a man, shouldn’t mean you are excluded from female society. If your gender, ie how you identify, is female, and that’s what’s important, for areas where it’s not a competition, we should all be as inclusive as possible. Imagine if it was the other foot. And a female wanted to identify as a man, and men were excluding them. I don’t think that would be fair. Sport is different though, because it’s a competition and you should be competing against people of similar ability. It’s not fair if someone has genetically more muscle or longer legs.

Are you heterosexual? If so, would you date a transwoman?

Are you gay? If so, would you date a transman?

I really just want to hear actual facts from people about what should be included in this debate. How to be inclusive but not oppress biological born women, and negates battles biological women have fought for. Alongside respecting and valuing our trans women sisters

@TheRebelle

Our sisters?

Now, now.. be kinnnnnnd

In fact, a transwoman was able to win gold in a sport no other woman is allowed to participate in - the decathlon. You've heard of Cailyn Jenner, presumably?

So did she compete against men? As a tran man to woman?

They started chromosome testing in women's sports around 1960's. They abandoned it in the late 1990's. I'm not sure it was abandoned for the interests of women. Again the IOC or IAAF rules on testosterone levels were not introduced for the interests of women. Only a pair of boll*cks naturally manufacturing the 9nm/L, and IOC decided they are good to go against women athletes.

Athlete's do intrusive tests all the time. I imagine female athletes would be very happy to do this testing if it means they had fair competition. In the rare cases where there are ambiguities, these could be investigated further.

Caitlyn Jenner is a transwoman or male. She competed, and won, in the decathlon against other men.

Sport is separated by sex not gender, therefore it is absolutely fine for transwomen to compete with men, and transmen to compete against women (as long as they aren't taking any performance enhancing substances such as testosterone).

Notwavingbutdrowing3 I think men should be inclusive and welcoming to transwomen in all areas. That would meet your criteria, wouldn't it?

Example: boxing is matched by weight and ability

And sex...

@Letsallscreamatthesistene

In fact, a transwoman was able to win gold in a sport no other woman is allowed to participate in - the decathlon. You've heard of Cailyn Jenner, presumably?

So did she compete against men? As a tran man to woman?

Caitlyn Jenner won medals when he was Bruce Jenner. As a man competing in a men's category. And as far as I know since Bruce became Caitlyn, she has said that it's not right for transwomen to compete in biological women's categories.

Laurel Hubbard and Rachel McKinna (now changed name to Veronica something) are not biological women and should not be competing as women.

We wouldn't be in this fix if we didn't (a) keep conflating gender and sex because we're too squeamish to use the word sex and (b) didn't gender/sex stereotype. There's no reason why a man who wants to wear dresses and lipstick needs to be a woman. he can be a man and wear a dress and make-up. But stereotyping is a core tenet of our society.

@Wardenmammy

No misunderstanding, sports like this shouldn't be separated by sex or gender. You just change how it's assessed.

Example: boxing is matched by weight and ability. Add this to other sports, base it on muscle mass, weight, height etc

It's so funny to me that some of you get your knickers in a twist over something that really doesn't matter all that much 🤣

You are incredibly ill-informed.

I’d suggest you do some reading.

The latest studies show that:

punch power is 162% greater in men than women

This review of studies is very informative and the conclusions have also been reached by a transwoman scientist in a similar review.

link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3

It even has a section on Olympic weightlifting:

In Olympic weightlifting, where weight categories differ between males and females, the performance gap is between 31 and 37% across the range of competitive body weights between 1998 and 2020 (Fig. 1). It is important to note that at all weight categories below the top/open category, performances are produced within weight categories with an upper limit, where strength can be correlated with “fighting weight”, and we focused our analysis of performance gaps in these categories.

But as you say… knickers in a twist and all that.

Think about this: is it always a good thing to be inclusive? Should under 11 football teams include 15 year olds? Should synchronised swimming teams include donkeys? Should the equestrian team include 20st riders?

This is a useful site for comparing male (high school boys) vs womens (elite ethletes) performance.

boysvswomen.com/#/

And, for the record if you have a male and female of identical height and weight, the male would still have a massive physical advantage with muscle mass, heart size, lung capacity, bone strength and so on.

@AyeRobot

Notwavingbutdrowing3 I think men should be inclusive and welcoming to transwomen in all areas. That would meet your criteria, wouldn't it?

Yes

You misread my point

Which is that we all want to be inclusive and respect our trans women sisters, but there is a real debate about biological advantage for biologically born males who went through puberty as male developing their bodies. Even those who identify as women & changed their hormones. It should be a respectful debate.

we all want to be inclusive and respect our trans women sisters

Do we?

For weightlifting, the male pelvis shape gives an additional advantage n leverage when performing the snatch (the move where the lifter is in a squat position holding the bar above their head and then stands)

I agree it should be a respectful debate. However, I also feel that you unnecessarily shoehorned in "our trans women sisters", which I feel is insulting to the GC side of the debate. But maybe that's just me.

Women are not just men with boobs and lack of dangly bits. It's concerning that so many people now think it's a virtue to pretend to be this thick and misogynistic.

@WinterIsGone

I agree it should be a respectful debate. However, I also feel that you unnecessarily shoehorned in "our trans women sisters", which I feel is insulting to the GC side of the debate. But maybe that's just me.

No, I felt that was deliberate.

Very condescending and 'play nice' tone to it.

@WinterIsGone

I agree it should be a respectful debate. However, I also feel that you unnecessarily shoehorned in "our trans women sisters", which I feel is insulting to the GC side of the debate. But maybe that's just me.

There is sometimes an extremist view to debates when people feel they have to denigrate others. It should be a respectful debate. I'm glad you see that. I don't disagree with concern about biological advantage. Nor do I disagree with a number of other issues unrelated to this thread, I just despair when it becomes extreme and assumptive. If everyone can debate the issues and accept other views without cancelling those views we will have a much better understanding as a society about the issues. Women are little heard & should be heard.

This breaks it down very well