Transgender weightlifting

[Husbandno3]

I like to think of myself as a feminist.
I’m there was in interesting feature on BBC radio 4s woman’s hour about transgender athletes and inclusion in the olympics.
The programme featured some new research and an interview with the researcher, that suggests that there are significant biochemical differences between trans women and women that may mean they have an unfair advantage.
Controversially the Olympic committee have recently permitted the inclusion of trans athletes in certain sports. The one that has made the newspapers is a trans female athlete from New Zealand that will be competing in the upcoming olympics.
My position is that I do not feel there is any reason to not be as inclusive as possible in any walks of life to trans women, however, in some competitive sports such as weightlifting, where it could convey an unfair advantage, it might not be appropriate. (These appeared to be similar thoughts to the radio 4 presenter by the way, based on the research that was published)
I wondered what others thoughts were on this.

Caster Semenya is a woman. To simplify her particular situation isn't fair. We all talked about her situation and the biology behind it forever at work because biologically it's so interesting and relevant to what we do.

The complexities of her case & being classified as an athlete with differences in sex development (DSD) stand apart completely from the wider issue of trans athletes. If you look into the biology surrounding her case it's clear she is female. But it's a very unusual situation, and she was treated pretty viciously for years. I think a lot of people only heard her story when trans sport started becoming an issue and she kind of got lumped in with that whole controversy.

@KimMumsnet

Hi, OP. We're moving your thread to the Sex & gender debate board now.

That's right, shuffle it off out if the way.

Cowards.

And...
the thread has already been whisked away, lest too many people see it.

@lifeissweet

OP is basically saying 'we need to be inclusive and kind in all situations, but need to draw a line at sport, because that's unfair'

Really? Sport? Sport is the issue that makes you think: 'hang on. That's not fair'?

Not women's provisions or domestics abuse shelters or medical examinations... sport.

Tells me all I need to know.

I'm hoping that this will be the point that makes people realise how mad the whole thing has become. It's more obvious in sports, especially weightlifting, than it might be in other spheres (at least, to people who aren't paying attention or have been successfully brainwashed elsewhere).

You think it’s just possible that a man might, just might, have an advantage over women in weightlifting? We’ll blow me down with a feather!

I just wanted to add, I totally understand why Caster Semenyas case might make some people think immediately of wider transgender issues of the moment. But to contextualise, because of the industry I work in, we were all following her case back in 2009 and we've been following it ever since. At the time she was made to undergo sex Testing (by the IAAF I think or the IOC). It was, in the way it was fine, humiliating and handled very badly. They didn't want her, but she passed their sex Testing so was cleared to compete. This was a huge story for us all.

I respect we all have different thoughts on this but for me this story of her case has been in my mind for over a decade and stands way apart form the current issues on transgender etc.

*done, not fine

@Fairdosmun

Hubbard isn't 'female'. They identify with some nebulous idea of woman.

They went through male puberty with all the advantage that confers.

Hubbard is a mediocre male cheating against female athletes.

If this is allowed to catch on it will destroy women's sport.

It's not transphobic to state reality.

Even if Hubbard loses at the Olympics, it isn't the point. The fact she is there at all proves the unfairness. The fact that as a man she was never better than state level, but now as a "woman", at 43, after a serious injury, she can be world class, an Olympian, with a fair chance of gold, is the proof itself. No natal women in their 40s are weightlifting at the Olympics, and can you imagine if one of them tried to take on the men?

This won't happen as trans women don't want to be accepted by men - they want to be associated with women

Whilst I dont doubt this is a massive factor, a significant factor is also that Transwomen dont feel safe around men. Which we women know, because....hello....history.

Women have been victims of Male violence since the dawn of time.

Doesnt mean Transwomen can come into our spaces. These spaces are the last areas we can feel safe from Male violence.

It's completely unfair to have him compete against biological women, and should never be allowed to happen. This will destroy women's sports. The fact is, no matter the feelings, the individual was born a man. He has the advantages of male puberty, trained as a male weightlifter, and now wants to compete in the women's. It should not be allowed at all. Hubbard is, biologically, a man.

I'm not worried about male violence in the Olympics but I'm furious about the absolute dishonesty and lack of both fairness and sporting integrity.

Caster Semenya is a woman. To simplify her particular situation isn't fair

No one is simplifying it, caster has a DSD which only males can have, and to be honest I'm not sure how much caster identifies as a women when off the track either

m.youtube.com/watch?v=Hvg50P4FwTk

Males with the same DSD as Caster Semenya are very much sought out by those who wish to exploit them and make money out of them by placing them in women's competitions.
This has all been exposed over the last couple of years.
There is no misunderstanding.
Caster Semenya has been fully aware of their biology for years now.

@Ivymundane

I don’t do sports, it doesn’t affect me directly, so whilst I’m aware of it I don’t really care that much. I think that’s how it goes for a lot of things in life, if it doesn’t affect you much, you don’t apply much thought to it.

I imagine athletes are quite concerned about it though, especially if they are women and compete in weight lifting.

Until it affects your daughter's sports

At any rate, Hubbard has no DSD. She was absolutely born male, went through male puberty and lived as a man until her mid 30s. Even if she's decreased her testosterone levels now, she retains enough male advantage that she's a worthy contender against natal women 20 years younger, at Olympic level...having never got anywhere near that far in the men's leagues.

I'll fix that for you: there are significant biochemical differences between MEN and women that mean they have an unfair advantage

All the other Olympic female weightlifters ( and other sports where a similar thing arises) should withdraw from the competition to make the point that it's not acceptable. Do it on the day of the event too when it's being televised. I know that would be hard for them after all their training but I think it would only have to happen once before the organisers had to rethink the rules being changed, as the sport would be brought in to disrepute. If the organisers try to claim it to be a hate crime then it needs to be pointed out to them that they are the ones committing a hate crime against all the other female athletes.

But to contextualise, because of the industry I work in, we were all following her case back in 2009 and we've been following it ever since.

what medical or science background do you and your colleagues have to determine that ’If you look into the biology surrounding her case it's clear she is female.’ As opposed to the other medical doctors, specialists and developmental biologists?

Why other information can you give to support your point of view that we have not seen from others who have this as their speciality? I think we would all be really interested to see a well supported and researched paper.

@quizqueen

All the other Olympic female weightlifters ( and other sports where a similar thing arises) should withdraw from the competition to make the point that it's not acceptable. Do it on the day of the event too when it's being televised. I know that would be hard for them after all their training but I think it would only have to happen once before the organisers had to rethink the rules being changed, as the sport would be brought in to disrepute. If the organisers try to claim it to be a hate crime then it needs to be pointed out to them that they are the ones committing a hate crime against all the other female athletes.

This is too much to ask of them.

Where on earth do you work Polkadots2021?
I hope it isn't anywhere that has any influence on health services, public information or social policy.

@KimMumsnet

Hi, OP. We're moving your thread to the Sex & gender debate board now.

Well done OP and MNHQ for getting this moved to a better forum thread

I hope that everyone is respectful of each other's viewpoints. Debate should be encouraged

I am biologically, and identify as a man.
I do not believe it’s right that if you identify as a woman, (whatever your biological characteristics) you should be excluded from areas of life that you wish to enter. For many people, it’s not a choice how they identify. Not wanting to be accepted as a man, shouldn’t mean you are excluded from female society. If your gender, ie how you identify, is female, and that’s what’s important, for areas where it’s not a competition, we should all be as inclusive as possible.
Imagine if it was the other foot. And a female wanted to identify as a man, and men were excluding them. I don’t think that would be fair.
Sport is different though, because it’s a competition and you should be competing against people of similar ability. It’s not fair if someone has genetically more muscle or longer legs.

Our rights are not yours to give away because other men want them.

@TheRebelle

Our rights are not yours to give away because other men want them.

This.