Transgender weightlifting

[Husbandno3]

I like to think of myself as a feminist.
I’m there was in interesting feature on BBC radio 4s woman’s hour about transgender athletes and inclusion in the olympics.
The programme featured some new research and an interview with the researcher, that suggests that there are significant biochemical differences between trans women and women that may mean they have an unfair advantage.
Controversially the Olympic committee have recently permitted the inclusion of trans athletes in certain sports. The one that has made the newspapers is a trans female athlete from New Zealand that will be competing in the upcoming olympics.
My position is that I do not feel there is any reason to not be as inclusive as possible in any walks of life to trans women, however, in some competitive sports such as weightlifting, where it could convey an unfair advantage, it might not be appropriate. (These appeared to be similar thoughts to the radio 4 presenter by the way, based on the research that was published)
I wondered what others thoughts were on this.

@Husbandno3

I am biologically, and identify as a man. I do not believe it’s right that if you identify as a woman, (whatever your biological characteristics) you should be excluded from areas of life that you wish to enter. For many people, it’s not a choice how they identify. Not wanting to be accepted as a man, shouldn’t mean you are excluded from female society. If your gender, ie how you identify, is female, and that’s what’s important, for areas where it’s not a competition, we should all be as inclusive as possible. Imagine if it was the other foot. And a female wanted to identify as a man, and men were excluding them. I don’t think that would be fair. Sport is different though, because it’s a competition and you should be competing against people of similar ability. It’s not fair if someone has genetically more muscle or longer legs.

You have no skin in the game

You have no clue what women are being asked to swallow

I think you make a good point OP.

I have no foot in nor agenda in this debate , and the trans woman weightlifter being selected has a right to identify as a woman and be respected. But I can't help but feel a heart sink that she has a biological advantage in terms of bone density/ and muscle development from male hormones as she developed through childhood and teenage really adult years, that could make it an unfair advantage for her to women were born as biologically female, that she is competing against.

It doesn't come across as fair nor an even playing field. I don't want to be considered transphobic in saying that, because I support the rights of everyone to be who they are and to be accepted for who they identify as.

It is such a complicated question now that needs open debate without people being threatened for their views and reasoned contributions to see all sides of a necessary debate.

Which is how to you support the rights of one oppressed minority against the rights of another? And is it at the expense of hard won progression to respect women's rights and that sports have recognised biological differences for years as being pertinent.

I don't have any answers but hope that people can be respectful in how they discuss this

I do not believe it’s right that if you identify as a woman, (whatever your biological characteristics) you should be excluded from areas of life that you wish to enter

Do you think women should welcome this 'women' into our single sex spaces?

Actually fairdosmum
OP does have a voice and he is supporting women's rights , let himself say what he feels is important and proper an respect his views in context of who he is

@Husbandno3

I am biologically, and identify as a man. I do not believe it’s right that if you identify as a woman, (whatever your biological characteristics) you should be excluded from areas of life that you wish to enter. For many people, it’s not a choice how they identify. Not wanting to be accepted as a man, shouldn’t mean you are excluded from female society. If your gender, ie how you identify, is female, and that’s what’s important, for areas where it’s not a competition, we should all be as inclusive as possible. Imagine if it was the other foot. And a female wanted to identify as a man, and men were excluding them. I don’t think that would be fair. Sport is different though, because it’s a competition and you should be competing against people of similar ability. It’s not fair if someone has genetically more muscle or longer legs.

Yeah, sorry, but when I have a mammogram, I want a woman to do it, not a transwoman.

Likewise if I'm ever in prison, I don't want to have to go through what other women have and be housed with a male rapist.

In the very unfortunate event that I find myself in a rape refuge, neither do I want to find that my counsellor isnt a woman and I'm transphobic if I don't want to talk about my rape with them.

You might be able to see the unfairness in sport, perhaps try, for just a second, to imagine how awful it could be in other areas.

@threeteenstaximum

Actually fairdosmum OP does have a voice and he is supporting women's rights , let himself say what he feels is important and proper an respect his views in context of who he is

Whoops auto incorrect got to that and changed my last part of sentence

I meant to write let him express his views in sports as he is trying to make a point about sports and biological advantages
He may not have skin in the game as a biological man wrt other issues, but we are all sensible enough to take his comments in context

Do you have a wife or daughters OP?

transcrimeuk.com/

You might want to have a look at the above site. Would you be happy with all of these transwomen sharing single sex spaces with the women you know?

@threeteenstaximum

Actually fairdosmum OP does have a voice and he is supporting women's rights , let himself say what he feels is important and proper an respect his views in context of who he is

Where did I stop him saying what he thinks? I just disagreed.

I actually didn't realise it was the OP but regardless he said for areas where it’s not a competition, we should all be as inclusive as possible.
And I disagree, because it's not just in competitions that women's rights are being leaned on.

@Polkadots2021

Caster Semenya is a woman. To simplify her particular situation isn't fair. We all talked about her situation and the biology behind it forever at work because biologically it's so interesting and relevant to what we do.

The complexities of her case & being classified as an athlete with differences in sex development (DSD) stand apart completely from the wider issue of trans athletes. If you look into the biology surrounding her case it's clear she is female. But it's a very unusual situation, and she was treated pretty viciously for years. I think a lot of people only heard her story when trans sport started becoming an issue and she kind of got lumped in with that whole controversy.

I’m afraid you are incorrect. Semenya is biologically male - she has XY chromosomes and internal testes pumping out testosterone. She has never been through a female puberty.

If you want some up to date science, try these podcasts. Prof Ross Tucker was on Semenya’s legal team. He knows the inside track on this.

play.acast.com/s/f3fb5c75-b943-4f5d-bd87-27c91611dd24/379c49be-d39b-4227-8923-2b340c9dcac0

fairsdomum we cross posted and I don't disagree with you

I just think that we shouldn't write off other peoples views but respect them in context. I think you were saying same and reacted to the earlier bit of his post.

There is no reason sports like this should be separated by gender, so being trans really shouldn't make a difference 🤷🏻‍♀️

@Wardenmammy

There is no reason sports like this should be separated by gender, so being trans really shouldn't make a difference 🤷🏻‍♀️

I think you have misunderstood the debate. Sports are separated to women's and men's because men have a biological advantage and that is the whole debate. It's hot gender it's a biologically born sex advantage

There are issues that people are discussing & should be allowed to discuss without being fearful.

@Wardenmammy

There is no reason sports like this should be separated by gender, so being trans really shouldn't make a difference 🤷🏻‍♀️

They aren't, they are separated by sex.

When did all this concern with what people “identify as” become accepted orthodoxy? (Hint: out there in the real world it really, really hasn’t outside of Twitter, Tumblr and assorted tech platforms). Most people are men or women. “Identity” is so nebulous as to be essentially meaningless.

Secondly, what do people think “transitioning” involves? For teenage girls with ROGD it clearly means double mastectomies and hysterectomies in double quick time. But what about middle aged men who “start the long process of becoming a woman” (as Mishal Hussein put it on the Today programme on Radio 4 the other week). Growing their hair longer and changing their name. That’s essentially it. How many transwomen have had surgery to remove their testes and penis? Very few. (And of course, a man without a penis is not a woman…). So why should such people, on their say so, have the right to put themselves in women’s single sex spaces? And if you’ve noticed (rightly) that this is awful for women’s sport, but haven’t thought about prisons, rape crisis centres, refuges, etc etc etc, then do, please, do a bit of thinking.

No misunderstanding, sports like this shouldn't be separated by sex or gender. You just change how it's assessed.

Example: boxing is matched by weight and ability. Add this to other sports, base it on muscle mass, weight, height etc

It's so funny to me that some of you get your knickers in a twist over something that really doesn't matter all that much 🤣

Stop hiding threads MN

@Polkadots2021

Caster Semenya is a woman. To simplify her particular situation isn't fair. We all talked about her situation and the biology behind it forever at work because biologically it's so interesting and relevant to what we do.

The complexities of her case & being classified as an athlete with differences in sex development (DSD) stand apart completely from the wider issue of trans athletes. If you look into the biology surrounding her case it's clear she is female. But it's a very unusual situation, and she was treated pretty viciously for years. I think a lot of people only heard her story when trans sport started becoming an issue and she kind of got lumped in with that whole controversy.

I'm not sure what biology you think a dsd of 46XY gives rise to. However, you are very misinformed if you think it is the biology of a woman.

@Wardenmammy

No misunderstanding, sports like this shouldn't be separated by sex or gender. You just change how it's assessed.

Example: boxing is matched by weight and ability. Add this to other sports, base it on muscle mass, weight, height etc

It's so funny to me that some of you get your knickers in a twist over something that really doesn't matter all that much 🤣

Pure misogyny

@Husbandno3

I am biologically, and identify as a man. I do not believe it’s right that if you identify as a woman, (whatever your biological characteristics) you should be excluded from areas of life that you wish to enter. For many people, it’s not a choice how they identify. Not wanting to be accepted as a man, shouldn’t mean you are excluded from female society. If your gender, ie how you identify, is female, and that’s what’s important, for areas where it’s not a competition, we should all be as inclusive as possible. Imagine if it was the other foot. And a female wanted to identify as a man, and men were excluding them. I don’t think that would be fair. Sport is different though, because it’s a competition and you should be competing against people of similar ability. It’s not fair if someone has genetically more muscle or longer legs.

I try to avoid using the words "privilege" and "mansplaining" for various reasons, but there are no other terms for what's boiling over out of this patronising and ignorant post. And you came to Mumsnet with it? Why aren't you on Twitter patronising all the people who told J K Rowling to choke on their lady dicks and die in a fire when she said that sex exists?

You do not require the same sex-based protections as women. You have your own issues, but dangerous women identifying as men to get into male spaces to attack men and overtake male voices aren't one of them. Women dressing up like Bluto and telling you they are "redefining what it is to be a man" without a trace of irony aren't one of them.

It's somewhat gratifying that you do recognise the sex based difference between men and women in sports, because the Olympics don't, but if you want to do some good in this issue, you need to get away from lecturing women about it. It's not women who are attacking trans people and endangering their physical safety. Sir.

@Wardenmammy

No misunderstanding, sports like this shouldn't be separated by sex or gender. You just change how it's assessed.

Example: boxing is matched by weight and ability. Add this to other sports, base it on muscle mass, weight, height etc

It's so funny to me that some of you get your knickers in a twist over something that really doesn't matter all that much 🤣

Matching weight and height does not level the playing field. 🙄

Muscle mass, heart size, lung capacity, haemoglobin levels, etc, etc.

Sport is a multibillion pound industry. In certain countries, it's the key to education.

It's a shame you don't support women in this.

It's so funny to me that some of you get your knickers in a twist over something that really doesn't matter all that much

Tell that to the women missing out on scholarships, and sporting opportunities. Many of whom are women of colour, but you carry on cheer leading giving those opportunities to males.

Not wanting to be accepted as a man, shouldn’t mean you are excluded from female society. If your gender, ie how you identify, is female, and that’s what’s important, for areas where it’s not a competition, we should all be as inclusive as possible.

Could you please tell us why a male who identifies as a woman should be able to represent females in positions set aside for females on panels, roles and boards that make decisions and influence policies about women?

Could you please tell us why a male who identifies as a woman should be able to examine a rape victim who asks for a female examiner because they say they are a woman?

These are just two examples of how your statement actually impacts females.

Have you thought in any depth at all about how your statement above plays out in real life, and how it negatively affects females in reality?

It is simply not just in sport.

Perhaps you might like to read further on this topic. This thread link has some really excellent information.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

@Wardenmammy

No misunderstanding, sports like this shouldn't be separated by sex or gender. You just change how it's assessed.

Example: boxing is matched by weight and ability. Add this to other sports, base it on muscle mass, weight, height etc

It's so funny to me that some of you get your knickers in a twist over something that really doesn't matter all that much 🤣

Clearly, it doesn't matter to you. It does matter to lots of other people. Who are you to tell them their interests and passions don't matter?

Also, it's big business. That gives sport an importance that (say) trainspotting will never have.

And finally, sport can be a lifechanger for many of those who take part. Scholarships, passport to a new career (e.g training, commentating), money to pay for training for a change of career. Even for those who don't reach competition standard, it's important for physical fitness and health. If you change the ground rules so it's no longer fair and women face even more obstacles to take part and do well than they currently have, there will be a direct effect on health.

@Wardenmammy

No misunderstanding, sports like this shouldn't be separated by sex or gender. You just change how it's assessed.

Example: boxing is matched by weight and ability. Add this to other sports, base it on muscle mass, weight, height etc

It's so funny to me that some of you get your knickers in a twist over something that really doesn't matter all that much 🤣

There are people who really are this ignorant about the actual differences between male and female bodies even when they are of equal weight and height, but the hint of racism in your username leads me to think you are not actually one of them.

I don't know why you're bothering. You don't need to pretend to believe this stuff to wind us up. You're lost in a sea of idiots who really do.