Transgender weightlifting

[Husbandno3]

I like to think of myself as a feminist.
I’m there was in interesting feature on BBC radio 4s woman’s hour about transgender athletes and inclusion in the olympics.
The programme featured some new research and an interview with the researcher, that suggests that there are significant biochemical differences between trans women and women that may mean they have an unfair advantage.
Controversially the Olympic committee have recently permitted the inclusion of trans athletes in certain sports. The one that has made the newspapers is a trans female athlete from New Zealand that will be competing in the upcoming olympics.
My position is that I do not feel there is any reason to not be as inclusive as possible in any walks of life to trans women, however, in some competitive sports such as weightlifting, where it could convey an unfair advantage, it might not be appropriate. (These appeared to be similar thoughts to the radio 4 presenter by the way, based on the research that was published)
I wondered what others thoughts were on this.

if a trans women does not want to be included in a male space, do you think we (as society) should be creating their own space

Some transwomen think this. If you have a hunt down the Petitions and Activism board you should be able to find a thread created by a transwoman who occasionally posts on MN, with a link to a petition for 'third spaces' created by some other transwomen.

If you want to do something constructive, maybe support their efforts?

Oh. And please do stop with that hyperbole in telling women that we are painting all trans people as criminals etc.

You are not even the first poster to do this today.

Some women posting on this board have been discussing this issue for a decade. Many of us posting on this thread have been following the research and disseminating the results for years.

I can't believe someone is arguing that Caster Semenya is a biological female. Caster is a biological male with a DSD which affects ONLY MALES. They had the benefit of male puberty and have known about their medical condition for at least 10 years.

littlbrowndog

FGM?

A contraversial term. At times it seems that the term is seen as more of an outrage than the practice.

Also many 'people' (I can't say which type) have understandable issues with/ anger about circumcision.

They get angry that FGM is illegal here but circumcision is not.

They say that the terms are unbalanced and it should be renamed MGM

I have a lot of sympathy with their views (apart from the last one).

What I CANNOT understand is why men who want change, come onto this site and join FGM threads to say it's not fair etc.

Circumcision is a practice in 2 major religions (maybe more).
The religions are patriarchal.
IME dads are keen to get their sons circumcised.

Why come and argue with women on MN? We didn't make those rules. Many/most of us are not from religions that do that.

It would be more productive surely to:

Support or create charities to help men who have been damaged by circumcision.
Lobby the government
Lobby the religious leaders
Get information out. The risks. You don't have to do this. There are choices.
Raise awareness of this with the general public.

All the usual stuff.

What is the point of coming onto this site, and telling women talking about FGM that they are sexist and mean?

(Rhetorical question obv).

The discrimination I'd like to see addressed is the fact that despite it being almost exclusively male people who attack trans people, make violent-minded, sexualised and misogynistic threats to women online and infiltrate female-only spaces, it's always women who get patronised and lectured and told to Be Nice And Inclusive.

Amazing how these people can always identify the women when they want to do that...

Looking at this again it's more revealing than at first glance.

'-for those of you who believe that all/the majority of trans people are committing violent hate crimes, I’m sure there may be a website of both male and female violent crimes that have been committed in the last year. The website you highlighted must represent a minority of people and I don’t (my personal viewpoint) believe it’s conducive to an inclusive society to highlight the crimes of one gender/race/sex/age bracket ect.'

The belief that most trans people are committing violent hate crimes...

When this was written, were they thinking of all trans people?
Transmen, transwomen, and children with a trans identity?
If so, the violent hate bit is very strange. No one surely thinks that hordes of non binary 12yo female children are going out and beating people up!!!

I think, and I'm pretty confident I'm not wrong. Was that it was a certain group of trans people in mind. A focus on a certain subset. The others not really in the picture at all.

Interesting.

And despite that. A desire to remove all metrics from offender stats. No sex, age, etc etc.
Note gender comes first. Sex third.

FYI to that poster you can leave sex out. Crime stats for offenders have been self ID for ages.
Strangely, it's still important to record when a victim is transgender.
Consistency as always.

I like to think that a picture paints a thousand words.

Yes. This photo clearly shows the hip alignment of this person.

It is not just "a bit unfair" allowing male bodied people to compete against women. In contact sports it is bloody dangerous, women have already sustained life altering injuries. Allowing male bodied people to join women's sports teams will mean women from certain religious groups will not be able to participate in those sports and women and girls who are not comfortable getting changed in the same spaces as male bodied people or having close physical contact with male bodies will stop participating in sport. It is totally unacceptable for male bodies to be entered into the female category in sports but it is also totally unacceptable for male bodies to be locked up in female prison or occupying beds in female hospital wards or winning prizes intended for women or in a myriad of other women's spaces.

@KimMumsnet

Hi, OP. We're moving your thread to the Sex & gender debate board now.

@KimMumsnet

Just so we are clear, this thread started in AIBU, and has been moved. So no one can ever discuss anything to do with gender ever, all all, in any place on Mumsnet, not in any mainstream areas, despite a person wanting to discuss it with a variety of people, other than this sub forum?

So when it was proposed that feminism discussions be split to allow discussion of non-gender related feminism topics, that wasn’t the true intention, what MNHQ actually meant is that all gender discussion needs to be corralled. Is that correct?

Very true running.

Maybe OP hasn’t seen this study done by Swansea university into the brain structure and even skull thickness of females (ie. It doesn’t change with cross sex hormones so males won’t have this issue.)

It makes them more prone to significant head injuries. Other studies then prove links to dementia for these head injuries etc as well.

www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-51434749

It doesn’t take much to connect the dots that retained speed and strength and skeleton of a male playing rugby with females means more chance of head injuries for the female players.

And a future of early dementia.

Incidentally, early onset dementia is a potential side effect of loss of ovaries in a young female. Loss of ovaries is a side effect of cross sex hormone treatment for female transitioners. Sadly, this is not being discussed but is a serious potential risk for female transitioners that male transitioners do not have.

But WHY and HOW has it happened that the rules were changed to allow male people to compete against women.

Even though every bloody person in the world knows the differences between male and female people in size strength etc etc.

And now women have to fight to show it's not fair.

Rather than the starting point being the status quo and proof having to be found that it's fair.

(And even if it was fair. There's a whole lot of other stuff with women's sports about. Funding, encouragement, defying stereotypes, role models for girls, in teams s feeling of camaraderie the same as no one questions the men having etc etc).

WHY did it get done. And then it's up to us to prove that men and women are different biologically? And have people going on about clownfish, dragging DSDs into things, and saying if women lose to men they're just not trying hard enough, and Michael Phelps feet etc.

It's a fucking piss take.

Everyone knows the difference. Everyone.

Why are so many people pretending they don't and wittering on about frogs?

Misogyny is why. Men want something. Other men put themselves in their shoes and think yeah that's shit they need to be given a hand.

And when women say no, what? Hold on s sec... They are accused of some of the most bizarre things in order to try and shut them up. Women saying no is intolerable.

NotBadConsidering

Yes I wasn't expecting that tbh.

Posts about things like rapists in female prisons and sport and so on in chat or aibu usually attract s lot of posts and s pretty good conversation.

On those threads most posters agree that transwomen are transwomen.

This topic is of interest to all women surely? And it's not like there were loads of posts on other topics.

I'm surprised and disappointed.

OP if aliens landed tomorrow and they were circa 15% faster and circa 30% stronger than male human athletes do you think that Messi, Djokovic, Hamilton etc would be expected to budge over let the aliens in to their sports? Would you ask them to suck it up and lose their titles, their prize money, their place in the team? Because that is what we are asking women to do by allowing Tranwomen into female sport.

@NiceGerbil

'To be better to achieve and for personal goals'

Seriously?

Blimey.

Well obviously you disagree maybe you have better goals than that nice gerbil

Well obviously you disagree maybe you have better goals than that nice gerbil

Weightlifting allows you “to be better to achieve and for personal goals”.

Competitive weightlifting, which that poster said they were, is about doing as well as possible in competition. If males are in female competition, it becomes pointless for the females.

Maybe you should have empathy for those whose places in competitions have and will be affected.

So

• the reason I posted about trans women and violent crimes is cause someone else had posted a website with a log of trans women’s crimes on. Which I don’t think is relevant or a sensible thing to create in the first place.

-without beating around the bush, my point is that everyone should have the right to identify how they wish. I have a godson and the idea that if he identifies a as a women he won’t be be able to express it for fear of being discriminated against is not a world I want to build for him. -I don’t think posting pictures of the weightlifter is relevant. What you look like physically is not something we should be judging people on. IMO all people of all genders have a right to look however they want without others mocking them. -however, in sport, female space should be protected. Sport is sport, people like to see the fastest runner the highest jumper, the most skilled race car driver. It’s not fair to an individual to make them compete as a gender they do now wish to compete at but IMO it’s also completely unfair to others to ask them to compete with people who are 10% slower, 25% muscle or are less skilled. It’s clear that most/nearly all of you feel that it is unfair to women to have this trans person compete with women. One of reasons I wanted to explore this, is that while it makes sense in sport, due to performance, i don’t believe it makes sense in other areas, such as employment, to have ringfenced trans person jobs, female jobs and male jobs. Or universities, or anything really. Or would others suggest that not the case and we should we be more likely to employ a transbuilder over a female builder due to her superior strength? Just seems a bit discriminatory to me.

I posted this in a pretty open area, cause I wanted to see what the majority of people in the general population thought on this issue in the news. Obviously on the feminism board most people seem to not recognise trans women’s rights to identify as women, which is fine but it does make me feel like the view represented here is a bit skewed.

Which I don’t think is relevant or a sensible thing to create in the first place.

It was created to counter the myth that transwomen don’t commit crime, whereas the reality is they’re just as likely to commit crime, and the same types of crime, as any other males.

I have a godson and the idea that if he identifies a as a women he won’t be be able to express it for fear of being discriminated against is not a world I want to build for him.

We would all support your godson to express himself however he wanted without fear. But it’s not discriminatory to say to someone that they can’t have everything they want.

I don’t think posting pictures of the weightlifter is relevant.

It’s a useful reminder that transwomen are not what many of the public perceive them to be, post-surgical, post-treatment feminine looking men. It’s not to mock Hubbard, it’s to mock the absurdity of the situation of someone who retains a male physique and all of the attributes that provide physical benefit being allowed to compete against women. Many people, without seeing Hubbard, would realise what the story actually involves.

IMO it’s also completely unfair to others

Agreed. Correct. Now, why is it completely unfair in sport, but not in the other scenarios you describe? What about prisons? Refuges? Rape crisis centres?

I posted this in a pretty open area, cause I wanted to see what the majority of people in the general population thought on this issue in the news

Did you ask for MNHQ to move it or did they move it from AIBU of their own volition?

Obviously on the feminism board most people seem to not recognise trans women’s rights to identify as women

Incorrect. Most people - around the world - think people can identify however they want. What that does not mean is that a male is actually a woman and that allows them all of the rights for women. If something is ring fenced for a woman, a woman should get it, not a male who identifies as a woman.

however, in sport, female space should be protected That's your line in the sand. For many women, that line is in a different place. Whose opinion should carry more weight?

If you report your post (button behind the 3 dots), you can ask why your it was moved. It's kinda connected to my first sentence and that men don't like it that women have boundaries.

Sorry there’s an erroneous ‘men’ in the paragraph about public perception, and many people would not realise what the story involves.

I do not feel there is any reason to not be as inclusive as possible in any walks of life to trans women

I hope that means @Husbandno3 that - as a man - you include transwomen in your dating and romantic life, and that they are welcome in male single-sex spaces.

Hi @Husbandno3,

I am sorry if you feel that women here are coming across as harsh. I was quite shaken first time I posted here.

It has just been a lot lately and many here have felt under attack for various reasons which have nothing to do with your post.

I agree that sports is unfair. Of course. There are resources showing that high school boys will take most Olympic women records if allowed to compete. We are talking annihilation of competitive sports for women. See the link below for an example of what I mean.

boysvswomen.com/#/

The posting of the picture is not meant to be unkind. It is just meant to show that Hubbard clearly is male born with the advantages in physique that implies. We still have posters here who believe that Caster Semenya is female and subject to racism based on not looking like a white western woman. Caster has testicles taking them through male puberty. Multiple videos seem to show that Caster does not view themselves as female off the tracks.

As for the crimes. Again, nobody is trying to be unkind. Women in prisons are extremely vulnerable, many have been subject to sexual abuse. Of the transwomen in prisons, about 50% have history of being sexual abusers, in many case rapists and have kept their penises. They are all arguing for being let into women’s prisons. Some are. This is happening on a large scale at the moment in California. We are constantly being told that transwomen are gentle and should be allowed in female cases. Unfortunately they have a male pattern of violence. In addition, there are many who claim to be trans but are not. How do we tell the difference?

There was a recent case where a woman for personal reasons (I believe having been raped) requested a female born person to do her mammogram as she panicked at the thought of coming close to someone she perceived to be male in that situation. The NHS trust branded her transphobic.

There are a lot of links and resources on this. Ask me (or anyone else) and we can link those. Please do not accept my word on anything, ask for the links to studies, cases, news articles and reports. I would encourage you to read very widely on this and form your own opinions. The arguments for transwomen are mainly “be kind” and “no debate”. We think that a blanket kindness to one group can harm other groups, often more vulnerable. We encourage debate and the facts, studies and statistics are on our side.

Please be ensured that nobody here have anything against any kind of gender expression. Nobody should be harassed for they way they look or act and everyone should be treated fairly and equally. Many here are gender nonconforming, many here are lesbian.

I’ve been really trying to get on board and accept the board changes, because it’s a done deal.

But if any thread touching on trans issues from anywhere in the site gets corralled here, even when the premise has nothing to do with feminism, and OP clearly has not the slightest interest in feminist analysis, for the love of god why would this post end up here?

For goodness sake, I want to talk about feminism! Why is the complaint “I want to talk about feminism without posters I don’t agree with talking about anything gender critical” prioritised over “I want to talk about feminism without having to justify basic feminist concepts to people who deliberately didn’t post in feminist chat because they didn’t want a feminist take”

Come the fuck on.

Also, there are already multiple threads about Hubbard here.

If the premise was to stop the perception that MN is trans obsessed for no reason at all, how on earth does this help?!

So now we have multiple threads on Hubbard. Look, I’m fired up about Hubbard and I want to talk about what’s happening. But there is other stuff going on too, and if every thread from all over the site that mentions Hubbard gets moved here, it’s going to look pretty distorted.

I don’t get it.

@Husbandno3

So

• the reason I posted about trans women and violent crimes is cause someone else had posted a website with a log of trans women’s crimes on. Which I don’t think is relevant or a sensible thing to create in the first place.

-without beating around the bush, my point is that everyone should have the right to identify how they wish. I have a godson and the idea that if he identifies a as a women he won’t be be able to express it for fear of being discriminated against is not a world I want to build for him. -I don’t think posting pictures of the weightlifter is relevant. What you look like physically is not something we should be judging people on. IMO all people of all genders have a right to look however they want without others mocking them. -however, in sport, female space should be protected. Sport is sport, people like to see the fastest runner the highest jumper, the most skilled race car driver. It’s not fair to an individual to make them compete as a gender they do now wish to compete at but IMO it’s also completely unfair to others to ask them to compete with people who are 10% slower, 25% muscle or are less skilled. It’s clear that most/nearly all of you feel that it is unfair to women to have this trans person compete with women. One of reasons I wanted to explore this, is that while it makes sense in sport, due to performance, i don’t believe it makes sense in other areas, such as employment, to have ringfenced trans person jobs, female jobs and male jobs. Or universities, or anything really. Or would others suggest that not the case and we should we be more likely to employ a transbuilder over a female builder due to her superior strength? Just seems a bit discriminatory to me.

I posted this in a pretty open area, cause I wanted to see what the majority of people in the general population thought on this issue in the news. Obviously on the feminism board most people seem to not recognise trans women’s rights to identify as women, which is fine but it does make me feel like the view represented here is a bit skewed.

The people your godson should fear if he turns out to be trans aren't women, and your insistence on effectively making them responsible shows your true agenda. You think none of us have children we want to protect?

The picture of Hubbard, which was already well publicised in the public domain, is entirely relevant because it shows why she retains unfair male advantage.

There's something a bit slimy, though not at all surprising, about you coming on here to lecture us about trans people living authentically to themselves when that's not the issue that 99% of us have. You're doing the skewing, sir. Most of us don't care about pronouns or clothes but we do care about being erased and unprotected in the spaces where it matters. Your attempts to ignore all this and to imply that we just hate trans people on sight, and think they're all criminals, as well as dismissing everything we say or show you because you know better, speaks volumes.

You are not here to further the cause of trans people while retaining women's safety, you are here to lecture the women because you think that's what we need from you. You don't understand the first thing about our needs and you have no interest in learning. Do you think we haven't seen a million others like you?

You're avoiding the question about whether you are a straight man who would sleep with transwomen. That's OK. We know the answer. We know you can identify the women when it matters, like with this very thread.