Transgender weightlifting

[Husbandno3]

I like to think of myself as a feminist.
I’m there was in interesting feature on BBC radio 4s woman’s hour about transgender athletes and inclusion in the olympics.
The programme featured some new research and an interview with the researcher, that suggests that there are significant biochemical differences between trans women and women that may mean they have an unfair advantage.
Controversially the Olympic committee have recently permitted the inclusion of trans athletes in certain sports. The one that has made the newspapers is a trans female athlete from New Zealand that will be competing in the upcoming olympics.
My position is that I do not feel there is any reason to not be as inclusive as possible in any walks of life to trans women, however, in some competitive sports such as weightlifting, where it could convey an unfair advantage, it might not be appropriate. (These appeared to be similar thoughts to the radio 4 presenter by the way, based on the research that was published)
I wondered what others thoughts were on this.

As for crimes by trans people, I have no trouble believing that the more we erode any safeguards until violent men have only to say they identify as women and that's it, the higher crime stats by supposed transwomen, sorry, women, will appear. Of course it's not that trans people are all violent, it's that safeguards against violent men masquerading as transwomen are being removed. Lo and behold, that makes actual trans people less safe as well. It's almost as if we nasty old Mumsnet meanies have been right to question the way the dominant branch of trans rights lobbying is going, even if it does mean being a bunch of women opposing angry male people. Which always goes well for us and makes people listen!

Rather than blaming and lecturing women, why don't you turn your sword of justice to the right target? If you think we've been mean on here, try defending Rowling on Twitter. Use a female profile for the full experience.

@Polkadots2021

I just wanted to add, I totally understand why Caster Semenyas case might make some people think immediately of wider transgender issues of the moment. But to contextualise, because of the industry I work in, we were all following her case back in 2009 and we've been following it ever since. At the time she was made to undergo sex Testing (by the IAAF I think or the IOC). It was, in the way it was fine, humiliating and handled very badly. They didn't want her, but she passed their sex Testing so was cleared to compete. This was a huge story for us all.

I respect we all have different thoughts on this but for me this story of her case has been in my mind for over a decade and stands way apart form the current issues on transgender etc.

I agree that Semenya shouldn't be the focus when discussing transgender athletes, however Semenya's case is relevant as if you think about it was the first big crack in opening up the women's category. Prior to that it was the doping of female athletes in the eastern block that saw huge advantages, much discussed by Sharron Davies. (Doping has been talked about in the male categories too but if you consider the testosterone that is being measured and permitted in trans athletes of both sexes it is relevant as we know it increases sporting performance.)

Semenya is male, the testing you refer to proves this and the type of DSD condition Semenya has can only be experience by men and boys. Please don't perpetuate the lie that is so often told. Semenya is XY, like my DH is, like my Dad is.

It was useful for everyone at the time to agree to continue to pretend that Semenya was female. An article from 2009 below, the media have been complicit in all that followed the tests.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1208227/She-wouldnt-wear-dresses-sounds-like-man-phone-Caster-Semenyas-father-sex-riddle-daughter.html

@NotBadConsidering

Well obviously you disagree maybe you have better goals than that nice gerbil

Weightlifting allows you “to be better to achieve and for personal goals”.

Competitive weightlifting, which that poster said they were, is about doing as well as possible in competition. If males are in female competition, it becomes pointless for the females.

Maybe you should have empathy for those whose places in competitions have and will be affected.

Well when it’s filtering down and affects that individual and there’s an example at a lower level non Olympic where someone loses out and is beaten by someone with a clear advantage then I’ll feel outraged with bells on.

You clearly have not read any of the links posted after the trans crimes site and I doubt you have even read our posts. But to address your points specifically.

- the reason I posted about trans women and violent crimes is cause someone else had posted a website with a log of trans women’s crimes on.

Because you asserted that apart from sport, males who identify as women should be treated as women.

We have told you the actual crime statistics, asked you for the studies that prove that transitioned males have the same propensity to commit sex crime as females (we know there is NO studies that do this already).

You understand that males are stronger (fucking read the studies!!) even AFTER transition. Yet you cannot extrapolate that combined with the actual transwomen statistics in prison in the UK at the moment out to safeguarding for females and children.

So, you can get the sports bit, but safeguarding for your godson and any female can fly out the window as far as you are concerned because you have an erroneous belief that we, as feminists, are telling you things out of us being misguided.

The current stats about the crimes for males who identify as women in prison is clear and you wish to deny it. That is on you.

Which I don’t think is relevant or a sensible thing to create in the first place.

You don’t think women should create sites to disseminate information that is relevant to their safety? It seems clear that you have absolutely no thought about the safety aspect for females. I really suggest you also do your own search on arrests in the uk for possession of child sex abuse material and look at the photos of those arrested over the past year. How many are female compared to male (how ever they identify) and DON’T just go by the name. Look at the photo.

But you think women should continue to accept the gaslighting that transitioned males don’t retain male patterns of criminality obviously if you believe that women should not have the resources to discuss it. You might look up misogyny while you look up those child sex abuse material possession charges.

Why isn’t it enough for Laurel Hubbard simply “to be better to achieve and for personal goals”?

Why do elite women athletes have to be content with some nebulous idea of personal goals when Laurel Hubbard gets to move into the women’s division in order to make sure Laurel wins at all costs?

Well said and with feeling Helleo

-without beating around the bush, my point is that everyone should have the right to identify how they wish.

Excellent. We agree!!

However, not when it comes to accessing the laws set up to address the millennia of discrimination of females. Females, however they identify, need laws to protect from discrimination they receive for having a female body.

So this includes transmen who still need these despite their belief that they don’t. They needed these rights from the moment of conception to ensure they had equal value and were not aborted, to being able to access the same quality of education as your godson, and as a transitioned female, they need still these rights for work place equality, to ensure the health risks for female transitioners are not overlooked as they often seem to be now. For instance, do you know what puberty blockers do to a female body? Do you understand that losing your ovaries in your early twenties has an incredibly high risk of dementia starting even in your 40s?

But what moral right does any male have to access and demand modification of the rights set up for females?

Please do share your line of thinking here.

I have a godson and the idea that if he identifies a as a women he won’t be be able to express it for fear of being discriminated against is not a world I want to build for him.

No one on this thread wants your godson to experience discrimination.

You have yet to tell us any educated reason though why your godson should acquire the specific protections that females have, this rendering those protections significantly diminished or even null and void.

You should be fighting for the rights your godson should have if he was trans. Specific rights for trans people that DO NOT negatively impact on the rights of girls and women, on females.

I don’t think posting pictures of the weightlifter is relevant. What you look like physically is not something we should be judging people on.

And yet, when images of the males who have identified into female sport categories are posted, the incredibly clear male puberty advantages are startling. Including, for weightlifting the competitors stance due to their pelvis. Which is just one of the advantages that males have right from birth and give leverage advantage in weightlifting.

I posted this in a pretty open area, cause I wanted to see what the majority of people in the general population thought on this issue in the news. Obviously on the feminism board most people seem to not recognise trans women’s rights to identify as women, which is fine but it does make me feel like the view represented here is a bit skewed

Yeah that one is on MNHQ

The vast majority of posters on mumsnet don’t want an echo chamber…MNHQ obviously do, and they don’t want that echo board ‘leaking’

Well when it’s filtering down and affects that individual and there’s an example at a lower level non Olympic where someone loses out and is beaten by someone with a clear advantage then I’ll feel outraged with bells on.

Here you go @OwningAllMyMistakes. Examples at high school, college and community level:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4175263--No-Trans-Olympian-List-of-women-and-girls-disadvantaged-in-sport-resource-thread

the reason I posted about trans women and violent crimes is cause someone else had posted a website with a log of trans women’s crimes on

So someone posts a website and that turns into posters on FWR believe that ‘all/ the majority of trans people are committing violent hate crimes’

There is a word for that…actually a lot of words for that 🤔

in sport, female space should be protected.

Well, it is a start. Why should female spaces be opened up to males, however they identify outside of sport? Do you think off the sporting arena that those physical advantages simply disappear? Like a rugby player loses all physical advantage over a female when they leave the field so they will be perfectly safe in other female spaces???

Sport is sport, people like to see the fastest runner the highest jumper, the most skilled race car driver.

Yes, and do you realise that employers still have a bias towards hiring males over females in many sectors. A UK veterinarian organisation tested this last year and even there the majority would hire the male.

You do realise females are still suffering systemic discrimination in employment too. So please tell us, how is allowing males to be included in an organisations sex demographic statistics as female helping females overcome this.

Specifically?

When a male who identifies as a woman will never need time off due to pregnancy?

Have YOU ever been asked at a job interview when you were going to have children? Have YOU ever been passed over for promotion because ‘she is around the age to start a family’? Have YOU ever been sacked while pregnant for the fact you were horrendously sick with morning sickness?

I have. And I can tell you, it was only last decade. So, please tell us again why a male who has had advantages in the workplace should have access to women’s awards, jobs (created to address female needs and address millennia of sexist discrimination) and achievements?

It’s not fair to an individual to make them compete as a gender they do now wish to compete at but IMO it’s also completely unfair to others to ask them to compete with people who are 10% slower, 25% muscle or are less skilled.

Right.

Ask yourself why you added ‘less skilled’? Is it because you actually understand the sexist discrimination females still encounter, but not just in sport, but in the workplace, in health care, in being believed about our stalkers, rapes and assaults, in SAFEGUARDING?

Is it because you actually do understand that a male is stronger and doesn’t lose their advantages with cross sex hormones? and as their propensity to commit crime and the types of crime is not that of a female, why do you honestly think a male who identifies as a woman should be treated as a woman for safeguarding purposes?

Because that is what you have continued to propose.

i don’t believe it makes sense in other areas, such as employment, to have ringfenced trans person jobs, female jobs and male jobs.

You are conflating negative discrimination with positive discrimination. There are many reasons for setting roles aside for specific groups.

I have explained that sexist discrimination still exists. In light of this, do you understand that sometimes females have jobs ‘ringfenced’ when needed in a ‘quota’ style to ensure that females actually get considered.

Roles are also set aside, such as women’s officer roles, to ensure that females actually have influence over policy decisions that affect… females.

Did you know that there are males who transitioned within two years who have taken these women’s officer roles? Can you tell women what experience those womens officer’s have to know what females actually need?

Or universities, or anything really. Or would others suggest that not the case and we should we be more likely to employ a transbuilder over a female builder due to her superior strength? Just seems a bit discriminatory to me.

I don’t quite get what you are saying. But this again seems to the same ‘all or nothing’ approach we see regularly.

When sex matters, sex matters.

Female’s can be employed pretty much anywhere in any job, unless it has been set aside for males where this is allowed (ie, a male health care provider might be needed for male patient’s needs and privacy and dignity).

For years now, job roles will include considerations needed for female biology. Eg.a female builder will have a maximum they can lift without it being a health risk. An employer needs to make these allowances. It has nothing to do with the skill level.

i don’t believe it makes sense in other areas, such as employment, to have ringfenced trans person jobs, female jobs and male jobs. Or universities, or anything really.
Most of us posting here are gender critical - that means we don't believe that your sex should determine what you can wear, what you can do for a living etc. None of us would argue that there are "women's job and men's jobs" in the broad sense of women should be nurses or secretaries, men should do the science and IT but there are a few roles that have been created to help redress the balance, drives to get women into STEM roles or on boards and positions such as women's officer that are designed to give women a voice and ensure that this voice or heard. If those roles go to TW it totally defeats the whole point of the role. You can argue that it's unfair to have these ringfenced positions but generally they only exist were the field is far from level and women are vastly underrepresented. What is the point of a TW as a women's officer? They may "feel like a woman" but they haven't had a life on the wrong end of sexism, they haven't had periods or pregnancy or menopause so how can they objectively represent women in a role that exists to do just that.

the reason I posted about trans women and violent crimes is cause someone else had posted a website with a log of trans women’s crimes on

And again, the site was posted because you told us that outside of sport, women’s safety doesn’t matter.

Tamika Brent suffered a broken eye socket and concussion 2 minutes in to a MMA fight against an opponent that was trans. It's plain as day it's cheating and unfair but every one is so fucking woke and scared to be labelled as transphobic and lose their jobs or get 'cancelled'. I am glad it's a topic as I hope now more people will speak up against the scenarios such as these.

Obviously on the feminism board most people seem to not recognise trans women’s rights to identify as women, which is fine but it does make me feel like the view represented here is a bit skewed.

Do you know, if you had left this on the AiBU board with a poll, it would have polled like all the other AiBU threads where women are asked whether they believe a male should have the rights of a woman. At least 90% of Mumsnet AIBU readers agree every time.

So you are wrong. You would get a similar alignment of posts on AIBU as here.

Why the fuck don’t you ask all the females you know, I reckon you might be surprised that the majority will disagree that for female single sex spaces, employment and health issues (ie when sex matters) that males should be considered women.

‘On the feminism board’ we actually are quite happy to discuss this. However, you have not brought any thoughtful statements, no peer reviewed research, no peer reviewed studies or papers, that support your declaration that males should be able to access women’s rights because they identify as women.

If a male wants to wear whatever the fuck they want, we support that. If a male wants whatever hobby they want, crack on.

What you are telling us seems to be that because a male identifies as a woman, they are a woman for all purposes … except sport.

You’re on a roll this morning, helleofabore! 👏🏼👊🏻💪🏻

It’s what happens when women are told to “educate yourself” on this topic.

We do

One of reasons I wanted to explore this, is that while it makes sense in sport, due to performance, i don’t believe it makes sense in other areas, such as employment, to have ringfenced trans person
jobs, female jobs and male jobs. Or universities, or anything really

You know that stating sports can be excepted from transwomen actually makes you transphobic right?
The mantra goes acceptance without exception.

Other areas include prison, crisis shelters, hospital wards, and any other woman only space.
University's, workplaces, clubs (I dont believe theres a single woman only club left) basically any place that's mixed sex by default is open to any trans person. No one wants them discriminated against in general life. Access to housing, benefits, jobs, healthcare etc all fine. Women only spaces they should show us the proof that itll all be fine BEFORE they step foot inside. And then still accept no entry because enough women cannot/are not allowed to be in the company of men, no matter their identity. And if men could reasonably be expected in say the women's gym changing room then the women will not be allowed to the gym.
And a man coming along to tell us we're all wrong , well, you really need to think about how you're coming across, cos it's most unpleasant.

@Warmduscher

Why isn’t it enough for Laurel Hubbard simply “to be better to achieve and for personal goals”?

Why do elite women athletes have to be content with some nebulous idea of personal goals when Laurel Hubbard gets to move into the women’s division in order to make sure Laurel wins at all costs?

This, with bells on. When Hubbard was competing in male events, there must surely have been an early period of hoping to be good enough to compete at national and maybe even international level, but it then became clear that Hubbard wasn't good enough to do that. Very few atheletes do reach that level.

Decades later, Hubbard transitions and starts competing in female events. Lo and behold, Hubbard's sub-elite standard abilities are enough to become NZ national champion and to get to the Olympics! Heading for double the age of the average female weightlifting Olympian, and yet able to outlift them.

Why didn't somebody say to Hubbard 'No, of course you can't compete in women's events, no matter how you identify. You are male and it would be as unfair as allowing you to go and compete in an event for young teens or over 80s. Focus on improving your own performance, that should be enough for you'. But no. The extraordinary sense of entitlement to shatter the dreams of young women who've trained hard and stuck to the rules is sickening. It comes not just from Hubbard and family, but the whole of the NZ sporting world that's allowed this.

@Husbandno3

I don’t think this thread has gone the way you thought and this corner is pretty scary. Women here really have all the arguments, data and statistics.

Just generally for you to think about…

Should a transwoman who has gone through male puberty play rugby, kickboxing or hockey with biological women? You seem to think no. Good!

should someone with a penis get changed next to teenaged girls?

should a biological woman who has been raped be able to refuse a smear test (unchaperoned) from someone with a penis?

should a biological woman in jail have to share a cell with someone with a penis and a history of commuting sexual assault/rape with that penis?

I think if you ask these questions on AIBU, you will get a lot of replies from less scary women, just an emotional reaction to what they think.

If you want thought through arguments, statistics and data. Please post any questions on this board.

I think many people still believe that this board is NOT representative of the majority of women and of Mumsnet.

And yet every poll there has been on AIBU has been overwhelming and often 96% in favour of women’s single sex spaces, women’s language, women’s rights.

The yougov poll that gets flung around shows that in general people want others to be able to live their lives, until they have to answer a question about how this works in reality. The question about males accessing female toilets while they still have a penis.

The majority completely disagree with this.

Why are people still telling women they are in an extreme minority to not want penises in their single sex spaces? They are proven wrong. Every. Time.

Helleofabore, That is because those kind people all think that transwomen are kind of women.

And when they realise that they in 90% of the cases have penises and identifies as lesbians, they suddenly start to go “wait a minute “. There is a reason they say “no debate”.

I like to think of myself as a feminist.

Think again, matey. Although, I guess if you believe in self-identification over reality . . .