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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

R4 now Tuesday 7.51 am

541 replies

somethinginoffensive · 08/06/2021 07:52

Discussing Stonewall.

OP posts:
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Letsgetreadytocrumble · 08/06/2021 17:43

I'm also thinking of that James O'brien LBC radio interview from a couple of years ago, where he treated a female caller with such contempt because she dared to say that she didn't think that transwomen should be in female changing rooms, and then brought on a transwoman caller and basically metaphorically stroked their hair and said 'there there, we won't let those nasty women bully you'.....

Today it feels like we have come an awfully long way from that Smile

somethinginoffensive · 08/06/2021 17:43

Just caught the end of that. A proper grown up discussion at last.

OP posts:
WarriorN · 08/06/2021 17:44

Didn't really discuss it tho

Basically, Twitter is bad.

susiebluebell · 08/06/2021 17:44

Haidt seems like he is a good teacher Smile

WarriorN · 08/06/2021 17:46

@WarriorN

In a way it's good that mn doesn't have a like or rt button

(This in the context of what Jonathan H was discussing.)

Theeyeballsinthesky · 08/06/2021 17:46

Evan Davis thinks we all have a gender identity? Speak for yourself Evan!!!

nauticant · 08/06/2021 17:46

The Coddling of the American Mind is a fine example of that susiebluebell.

WeeSisters · 08/06/2021 17:48

Good discussion on PM. Made it clear that the TWAW brigade are shutting down discussion and intimidating others on campus who do want debates.

nauticant · 08/06/2021 17:48

Evan Davis is a blithering idiot when it comes to the gender stuff Theeyeballsinthesky.

WarriorN · 08/06/2021 17:49

Jonathan made an excellent point that student debates suddenly became violent verbal rebuttal rather than batting a ball back and forth of discussion.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 08/06/2021 17:49

It interests me that they have ONLY had men on this topic today and on two flagship programmes.

I wonder if that is because they have a duty of care to guests and staff? If a woman speaks up she gets rape threats or worse, men don't get the same amount of abuse. Maybe it's not just another "manel"issue - maybe the Beeb's lawyers can see how things are going and that response could be robust?

WinterTrees · 08/06/2021 17:50

Ben Cohen trending on Twitter at the moment.

It's not been a great day for him really, has it?

WarriorN · 08/06/2021 17:52

Yes it's pissed me off that only men have discussed this.

Will woman's hour step up?

I'm listing again to this pm segment though as it needs brain power and it's very clever in that he's pointing out how crap Ben's "debate was."

Xenia · 08/06/2021 17:53

I just heard PM and it was good. t was a pity there was not time to get on to the things with pen ises in women's spaces but the US professor they had on had interesting things to say about why people get so angry. He said most students want a normal traditional debate - lecturer says one point and students disagree back and forth. Instead now a small minority doe snot debate back and just say in effect fingers in ears you have upset me and you are wrong - in a sense punching the lecturer or other person back not debating and other students are scared of being called bigots so dare not respond.

He also said universities are of the left so views of the middle or write are not so relevant - he is right (even in the 1980s when we brought Tory cabinet members to speak at my university we were pelted with eggs not allowed to speak freely) so instead the divide is between a woke left and a liberal left.

It can also be debates as a more practical issue - most women have had trouble with men some of whom are constantly after sex with teenage girls which is why we look after them, had single sex schools etc etc. It is just common sense that if you let people with a pe nis into the girls' changing room of Top Shop it will become a sexual free for all for these male perverts half the time. Even if most trans women with a pe nis don't do that kind of thing just the risk of one is a risk too high.

WarriorN · 08/06/2021 17:53

Will woman's hour step up?

Doubtful

Leafstamp · 08/06/2021 17:54

@Erikrie

The beauty of screen shots. Too late Kathy.
What did Kathy say?
stumbledin · 08/06/2021 17:54

On one level this segment was a total waste of time. Do we really need to be told that social media has dumbed down discussion.

But on the other hand the mere fact that (hee hee) idiotically woke ED actually had to articulate the gender critical arguement on radio 4 was good.

But despite all the shouting and twitter spats I still think a lot of people just think (as was said) this is just 2 strands of wokeness arguing with each other.

Partly because the BBC of all the mainstream news providers has gone out of its way to not reflect the voice of women. (evenon woman's hour)

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 08/06/2021 17:55

This is a HUGE shift in the BBC's reporting of women's issues though.

The only thing to cause that is lawyers.

FricasseeTurnips · 08/06/2021 17:57

I thought the guy Evan was interviewing was great. Evan sounded very much like he was picking vomit chunks put of the washing machine seal whilst introducing the section though.

WarriorN · 08/06/2021 17:57

I've been thinking all day that all BC did was shout all the isms and phobias and bigots back at the debate.

Haidt basically said that this was crap debating, it doesn't address the problem solving aspect of debate and it's been caused by social media and the like and RT button.

susiebluebell · 08/06/2021 17:59

@FricasseeTurnips

I thought the guy Evan was interviewing was great. Evan sounded very much like he was picking vomit chunks put of the washing machine seal whilst introducing the section though.
That is a brilliantly vivid image Grin
WarriorN · 08/06/2021 17:59

Yes big snigger in this kitchen!

WarriorN · 08/06/2021 18:00

BC also called troll on anyone (women) pointing out how wrong he was on certain points on twitter.

Crap debating again.

DeRigueurMortis · 08/06/2021 18:07

I liked this tweet:

1./ The winner of today's Dawn Butler award for Best Stonewall Sabotage goes to @benjamincohen who shows what happens when you spend years refusing to debate. You can no longer do it. His interview was less a car crash, more a full episode of Wacky Races.👇

nauticant · 08/06/2021 18:08

The only thing to cause that is lawyers.

That's just what I was mulling over. The real breakthroughs have come when cases started hearding towards, the courts. That created concrete stories that the media could start to report and people in general could engage with.

The years of grass roots work were valuable and fed into this but using the law has propelled this forward.