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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

R4 now Tuesday 7.51 am

541 replies

somethinginoffensive · 08/06/2021 07:52

Discussing Stonewall.

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12
Taliskerskye · 08/06/2021 18:08

The Guy Evan interviewed is very interesting.

The whole concept of no debate is mental. And actually it will be their downfall.

The vast majority of the world believes that identity politics is a croc of shit, not relevant to their lives. BUT, they will take seriously someone in politics who agrees on that stance. Ergo. The tories using it as a populist tool.
They will not win on such a huge issue. Ever. It’s in no way comparable to gay rights or race rights.

NancyDrawed · 08/06/2021 18:09

@Letsgetreadytocrumble

I'm also thinking of that James O'brien LBC radio interview from a couple of years ago, where he treated a female caller with such contempt because she dared to say that she didn't think that transwomen should be in female changing rooms, and then brought on a transwoman caller and basically metaphorically stroked their hair and said 'there there, we won't let those nasty women bully you'.....

Today it feels like we have come an awfully long way from that Smile

IIRC, that was Posie Parker. I remember when she mentioned social contagion earlier in the segment (I've just listened to it again, it's around 4.55) he deliberately misunderstood and tried to make out she'd said body dysmorphia was contagious. Tool.

(This clip ends after KJK's bit so I didn't hear the special voiced bit.

Jeremy Vine has a special soft voice for talking to TW too, makes me so cross when I hear it!

Xoxoxoxoxoxox · 08/06/2021 18:10

Well, at least the National debate (&BBC) has reached the point where a discussion by three men discussing whether women are allowed to have a discusision about women's rights is allowed to be heard now.

Benjamin does not interview well.

Quite.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 08/06/2021 18:12

nauticant and once we get to the courts and can demonstrate the e.g.. piles of dead and raped and abused and traumatised women and girls...well, then it is all a bit stark, isn't it?

Transwomen do not die from lack of access to single sex spaces. Women do.

WinterTrees · 08/06/2021 18:13

I enjoyed this whole twitter thread. 'Ben Cohen's performance on the Today programme only with a gif"

twitter.com/AMMcCormack2/status/1402162109757247493

LizzieSiddal · 08/06/2021 18:15

The winner of today's Dawn Butler award for Best Stonewall Sabotage goes to @benjamincohen who shows what happens when you spend years refusing to debate. You can no longer do it. His interview was less a car crash, more a full episode of Wacky Races.

Marvellous! Grin

LizzieSiddal · 08/06/2021 18:19

The interview on PM was excellent. The professor said anyone not agreeing with the far left (who he said are not liberals), are shouted at and called transphobic.

A few names spring to kind, Mermaids, Stonewall , Talcum X, Ben Cohen, etc etc etc etc etc.....

Rugbysexnotgender · 08/06/2021 18:19

Thanks shedbuilder I've signed up and evidently welcome as they had a heterosexual option.

TedImgoingmad · 08/06/2021 18:21

@Letsgetreadytocrumble

I'm also thinking of that James O'brien LBC radio interview from a couple of years ago, where he treated a female caller with such contempt because she dared to say that she didn't think that transwomen should be in female changing rooms, and then brought on a transwoman caller and basically metaphorically stroked their hair and said 'there there, we won't let those nasty women bully you'.....

Today it feels like we have come an awfully long way from that Smile

The woman he belittled was Posie Parker. Little did James "Right Side of History My Arse" O'Brien know that she would become an internationally known spokeswoman for the defence of women's spaces (love her or loathe her, she has single handedly had more impact with her poster campaigns than a hundred polite debates have).

I am waiting for Little JOB to change his tune now the tide is turning. He doesn't like being in he wrong, but is usually unable to articulate why he is right either. That's why his phone in callers are either low hanging fruit type males who can't argue their corner either, or women he can patronise and talk over with straw men arguments, using personal attacks or turning himself into the issue ( e.g. "Are you saying you'd be frightened if I was in the changing room next to you?) .

Re the JW interview this morning, I am feeling a bit more wary about it (even though it was delicious). Shoving this complex discussion, and one of incredible importance given Stonewall's reputation and reach, into the few minutes between Thought for the Day and the 8 o'clock notices seemed a deliberate attempt to sew more confusion than light. Not on JW's part, but I assume it's the producers who set the timetable, not him. And of course, the producers line up the interviewees, and I do find it hard to believe there was absolutely nobody else available to comment, not even the ususal rentagob types that are usually all over breakfast TV on this issue. Obviously, they didn't know what Ben Cohen would say, but part of me thinks it wouldn't matter, because predictably, he's the one getting the headlines, and TRAs will hear what they want to hear. Simon Fanshawe's reasonable and fact based words end up a footnote, when they are the most important parts of the "debate" - the simple fact that safeguarding exists because you have to think of the worst case scenario. BC can argue he was never speaking for the trans community anyway, and that this interview proves the BBC is a hostile place for them anyway, given his "treatment".

The bright side is that more and more hitherto quietly GC people are vocally pushing back; and people who didn't realise they were GC, but felt resistant to the compulsory "education" and "celebration" , can see they are not alone. The Emperor's willy is in clear view now.

jhuizinga · 08/06/2021 18:21

ED began the PM item by saying he didn't want to discuss the substance of this morning's 'discussion' but why the issue is so difficult to discuss. I thought JH made it very clear which of the two interviewees on Today was unwilling to engage with the issues, preferring to shut down discussion with accusations of bigotry. I had hoped that ED might have become a bit more aware of the threat gender ideology is to women's rights since his woeful interview with Fair Cop last year, but his opening remarks about gender identity suggest this is not the case (and had me shouting at the radio). Still, it's good that the BBC is covering the topic in a much more balanced way at all.

MsFogi · 08/06/2021 18:22

@WarriorN

Will woman's hour step up?

Doubtful

It doesn't really matter does it - I thought women had stopped bothering to listen to women's hour now that it centres men and trans women.
TedImgoingmad · 08/06/2021 18:23

X-post with NancyDrawed

nauticant · 08/06/2021 18:29

I don't agree that the segment on PM should have had a woman guest. When instead they had one of the foremost authors on this issue, that is free speech and freedom of ideas. It was a genuine coup to get him on. I imagine that one of the producers managed to make a great pitch to him, was thrilled when he said "yes", and Evan Davis practically had a fit when he found out this issue was going to be discussed and Jonathan Haidt was going to be the guest.

WarriorN · 08/06/2021 18:29

MsFogi

Jenni must be disgusted. I feel for her.

ScreamingMeMe · 08/06/2021 18:31

Now on YouTube

Letsgetreadytocrumble · 08/06/2021 18:32

@NancyDrawed I think it might have been a different interview to that one, but thank you for sharing this one too.

That is already starting to age badly for James O'brien, particularly when he starts scoffing at the idea of women only spaces and claiming that anyone woman worried about changing next to him would be 'paranoid'...!!!

NecessaryScene · 08/06/2021 18:34

ED began the PM item by saying he didn't want to discuss the substance of this morning's 'discussion' but why the issue is so difficult to discuss. I thought JH made it very clear which of the two interviewees on Today was unwilling to engage with the issues, preferring to shut down discussion with accusations of bigotry.

I think that's quite a good approach to take. Don't just rehash the morning incident, but have a "post mortem" to discuss "what the hell was going on in that 'discussion'"?

For a lot of listeners, Cohen's incoherence and attitude would have been as much of a revelation as the actual Stonewall topic. Haidt is exactly the sort of person the BBC should be having on.

smallspeckbigcloud · 08/06/2021 18:34

Well, at least the National debate (&BBC) has reached the point where a discussion by three men discussing whether women are allowed to have a discusision about women's rights is allowed to be heard now

God, that's one of those made me laugh then made me cry statements.

The PM interview on how debate has got toxic was interesting too. the interviewee (didn't pick up his name sorry) used BC as an example of the toxicness of progressive left in how you just shout 'bigot' and metaphorically punch someone in the face instead of having a discussion. So he totally nailed what BC was about Grin

Letsgetreadytocrumble · 08/06/2021 18:38

That's why his phone in callers are either low hanging fruit type males who can't argue their corner either, or women he can patronise and talk over with straw men arguments, using personal attacks or turning himself into the issue ( e.g. "Are you saying you'd be frightened if I was in the changing room next to you?) .

Yes, he always picks the low hanging fruit for the callers doesn't he, so that he can do that fucking annoying 'faux puzzled' face that he always does as well!

I remember in the call in I referred to above (I'm not sure if it is the same Posie Parker one or not tbh) there was a caller who came on and started talking about something that he clearly had not been briefed on and he just cut them off!

Letsgetreadytocrumble · 08/06/2021 18:40

I bet Stonewall are now like 'For fucks sake, next time we get asked to do one of these things, just send someone, anyone, it doesn't really matter who, otherwise they might roll out Benjamin Cohen again'!!!!

To be fair, I think a lot of people, me included, would love to hear more from Benjamin, he is priceless!

TomatoesAreFruit · 08/06/2021 18:42

BC crashed and burned.

I really liked the professor, and I like his description of social media as a giant outrage machine and his clear explanation of how it damages debate.

NecessaryScene · 08/06/2021 18:43

the interviewee (didn't pick up his name sorry)

Jonathan Haidt - author of "The Coddling of the American Mind."

Not actually read/seen that much from him myself - but lots of other people I respect respect him :)

One thing I have seen is this, which was good:

MsFogi · 08/06/2021 18:45

I wonder if we can add Benjamin to any of those "banks" of people who are available to speak on topics - it would be really helpful to ensure he is available anytime a tv or radio station needs someone to explain anything about trans issues and their impact on women's rights.

HeronLanyon · 08/06/2021 18:49

MsFogi - friend of mine is equality and diversity head at huge corp. I may just point him in his direction. Although friend would be startled and know I was up to something as he knows exactly where I stand and why.

WarriorN · 08/06/2021 18:50

I agree with Nauticant, he was an excellent choice for rising above the whole thing and reframing this morning as an issue of debate - as specifically he pointed out how BC couldn't debate.

My initial reaction to ffs another two men was in real time Grin