Kathleen Stock OBE: Trans Women Aren't Women : A discussion

[Childrenofthestones]

It's a view held by most people, so why has it become so controversial to state that trans women aren't women? On this episode of "So What You're Saying Is..." (#SWYI) we are joined by Prof. Kathleen Stock OBE, professor of philosophy at the University of Sussex and author of the best-selling book: "Material Girls: Why Reality Matters for Feminism".

Prof. Stock discusses the issues of sex vs. gender and gender identity, and explains how trans activists, arguing that gender is psychological not physical, now claim that womanhood & manhood are genders in a social, rather than biological, sense.

She discusses the possible motives for Stonewall's decision to become so actively involved in trans rights, as well as the vilification of its outspoken critics such as Germaine Greer and Julie Bindell. Prof. Stock has herself been the target of campaigns to silence, cancel and no platform.

Prof. Stock also discusses the negative impact the more extreme trans rights positions are having on women (changing rooms, public toilets, prisons etc.) as well as the young, and gays & lesbians.

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

I'm fed up having my words twisted and taken out of context to suit your own agendas

or analysed and understood

happy flounce!

Sorry I don't flounce anywhere.

I realise you may struggle to understand, but its all there in my post for everyone to read.
Maybe someone can explain it for you.

@RufustheBadgeringReindeer

My dad thought that man who had his penis removed was a woman

I asked if he was saying that if he lost his penis in a tragic accident he would be a woman

He said no obviously

People don’t think things through

Clearly not

Fourth post tonight to deliberately twist what I have said

I copied your words exactly. How is it twisted? I AGREED with you that Joe Public may think boobs and a hole make one a woman.

I pointed out how this is misogyny. I'm a woman, so it's easier for me to spot it

That YouGov survey is fairly disingenuous for a few reasons. Firstly, it talks about self identifying into a new gender, which on the face of it seems reasonable, however it doesn't make it clear that this means that the transgender person will then be using services which are separated by sex. I suspect if the wording reflected that, the answers would be considerably different.
Secondly, if you read the full survey results, the answers are very different when it is clarified that the transgender person has not been through a 'sex change'. Given that some 80% of transgender people do not go through surgical transition and many of the general public are unaware of this fact, to say people are 'generally accepting of transgender people using the facilities which correspond with their gender' is really not the true picture.

@RufustheBadgeringReindeer

Oh don’t flounce when im agreeing with you!

Such a sexist and degrading slur, I am surprised to hear a Feminist using it.

Flounce?

Okaaay

Its a very well known MN word...there is even a board for it

I'm a feminist and I didn't think "flounce" meant something bad. From context, it appears a British slang to "jump away" or "leave."

I'd equate it to American slang, "leave in a huff."

Flounce

I was picking the bits pertinent to what has been said in this thread. It does refute several statements made here, such as the first sentence: 'It's a view held by most people, so why has it become so controversial to state that trans women aren't women?' and the idea that men would be more accepting of trans people being the gender they say they are than women.

@Delphinium20

Fourth post tonight to deliberately twist what I have said

I copied your words exactly. How is it twisted? I AGREED with you that Joe Public may think boobs and a hole make one a woman.

I pointed out how this is misogyny. I'm a woman, so it's easier for me to spot it

I apologise, I'm tired and misread /misunderstood what you had written. Sincerely sorry I didn't mean to offend. Best if I call it a night

Responding to Waitwhat23 there to be clear.

I agreed as well delph and got told i was slurring and stuff 😩

Cross post

Havent watched the video however to me, trans women are women, the worst of men pretending to be trans women to get into womens spaces is a MEN problem not a trans problem, aswell as this I would feel much more comfortable with a fully transitioned trans women using a womans restroom than a fully transitioned trans man using the restroom of his sex, we need to help trans people belong as they gi through much more than the average woman

I am slurring to be fair

I have my retainer in 😀

Ive just had a pop at dh for something and its not having its usual effect...there may be giggling

@BilindaB the YouGov survey you linked was commissioned by Pink News. Wings Over Scotland commissioned a similar poll but with different wording and had very different results. It all depends on how the questions are put and what the biases of the commissioning organisation are.
wingsoverscotland.com/transforming-the-question/

Though I can't see anyway that females can make compromises in all this and at the same time achieve what they need to

At least this is something we can agree on.

@KarenOkefe

Havent watched the video however to me, trans women are women, the worst of men pretending to be trans women to get into womens spaces is a MEN problem not a trans problem, aswell as this I would feel much more comfortable with a fully transitioned trans women using a womans restroom than a fully transitioned trans man using the restroom of his sex, we need to help trans people belong as they gi through much more than the average woman

You are literally trolling us now. Transwomen go through more than the average woman. Get to fuck

Last time i copy what bernard says 😀

@KarenOkefe

Havent watched the video however to me, trans women are women, the worst of men pretending to be trans women to get into womens spaces is a MEN problem not a trans problem, aswell as this I would feel much more comfortable with a fully transitioned trans women using a womans restroom than a fully transitioned trans man using the restroom of his sex, we need to help trans people belong as they gi through much more than the average woman

If you’re gonna talk about average women then why not talk about average transwomen? The average transwoman isn’t fully transitioned. Their issues are different to women’s, not more.

Go through much more what? Shaving foam?

@RufustheBadgeringReindeer

Last time i copy what bernard says 😀

probably for the best Rufus. I think whatsit has flounced called in t a night now though

we need to help trans people belong as they gi through much more than the average woman smile

I don't even know where to start with that. It either shows an incredibly privileged experience or a complete lack of empathy and understanding of any of the issues women face (including but not limited to - violence against women meaning that 3 women are murdered a week in the UK, the low rate of rape convictions meaning it is virtually legal and is compounded by the horrific societal views of 'she was drunk', 'she was asking for it' ect, forced marriage, FGM).

MEN who identify a women go through much more than the average women? In what sense? And help them belong to what?