Kathleen Stock OBE: Trans Women Aren't Women : A discussion

[Childrenofthestones]

It's a view held by most people, so why has it become so controversial to state that trans women aren't women? On this episode of "So What You're Saying Is..." (#SWYI) we are joined by Prof. Kathleen Stock OBE, professor of philosophy at the University of Sussex and author of the best-selling book: "Material Girls: Why Reality Matters for Feminism".

Prof. Stock discusses the issues of sex vs. gender and gender identity, and explains how trans activists, arguing that gender is psychological not physical, now claim that womanhood & manhood are genders in a social, rather than biological, sense.

She discusses the possible motives for Stonewall's decision to become so actively involved in trans rights, as well as the vilification of its outspoken critics such as Germaine Greer and Julie Bindell. Prof. Stock has herself been the target of campaigns to silence, cancel and no platform.

Prof. Stock also discusses the negative impact the more extreme trans rights positions are having on women (changing rooms, public toilets, prisons etc.) as well as the young, and gays & lesbians.

Welcome to the future. Things have changed.
The immutable fact of binary human sexual reproduction has not - and will not - change, in that females and males are needed to create new humans.

Because they have transitioned, or because they always felt the gender 'male' was all wrong, and only living as a woman, identifying as a woman would end the psychological pain of being assigned a gender they felt deeply uncomfortable with.
Please define "gender". Who specifically assigns this gender? What does a natal male mean when he says he can "only live as a woman"?

more people than not, according to that survey, medical experts around the world and the World Health Organisation accept the best thing to do for their health and happiness is to accept them and treat them as women, not 'feminine men.'
In other words, "medical experts" and ostensibly the WHO would have us agree with lies no matter the harm that would come to those forced to lie. Rubbish.

And I would imagine very soon dictionaries will include trans-women under the definition of woman.
You imagine wrong, as transwomen are natal men and cannot be women.

Welcome to the future. Things have changed

They’ve certainly gone backwards. Because not being happy with your “gender” relies on you thinking that there is such a thing as a strictly defined, inescapable gender that’s been “assigned” to you. People have known for centuries that that’s not true and that they could break out of stereotyped sexist gender roles. That became easier over time too. And now transactivists are pushing those sexist roles and saying if you don’t fit in a stereotyped role then you have something “wrong” and need medical treatment and to change to deny your sex. That’s a crappy, sexist regressive future which is why we resist it.

Oh and also that cheesy statement is typical of this whole bandwagon. Thinking that soundbites and smug retorts of the type used by 12-year-olds in arguments with their mum, equals some kind of convincing position.

Welcome to the future. Things have changed.

Hahahahaha. Thanks for the belly laugh.

You are never going to agree they deserve the title 'woman' and I won't be able to convince you. But more people accept that if someone feels so strongly they are the wrong gender, and henceforth want to live their life as another gender (or non-binary), it's their life, their business..

Except that it is not just ‘their business’ is it?

The denial that ‘their business’ impacts on females is the heart of the issue. It fundamentally denies the needs of females for protection against discrimination for millennia due to having a sexed body that is female. And I am glad I don’t have to include lengthy sentences about production of gametes as it seems you understand that sex is a reproductive function and therefore reliably there are only two.

This discrimination is different to discrimination that trans people experience but some trans people who are female, also experience the deep and abiding discrimination against their sex still. Even as a transitioned female.

So, someone claiming to be a female impacts on others via health care, via sport, via education (via content, opportunities and at institutional level), via employment, via relationships.

And I also disagree that the population is growing more accepting of it. As females realize that it really is just another way that they are being discriminated against, the push back will continue to grow.

I did not mean to be rude. So far this discussion has been respectful, and I'd like it to stay that way.

Perhaps then don’t accuse women of lying because they disagree with you.

It demonstrates how unaware you are of thousands of years of patriarchal disbelieving and dismissal of women’s testimony and knowledge.

It’s pretty wilful ignorance actually.

I could get on board with being a transwoman actually. None of the inconvenient biology of a woman. No need to change my name or confuse my children by swapping pronouns. Sounds good.

Can I be one? If not, why not?

Welcome to the future. Things have changed

Oh this is getting silly 😀

It hasn’t changed females are still females, males are still males

Ive always been very happy with treating transwomen as women but there are clashes of rights and that where i have run into difficulties with my original opinions

There is a huge difference between ‘accepting’ people socially for who they and accepting people in law for purposes of accessing the rights of females.

@Helleofabore

There is a huge difference between ‘accepting’ people socially for who they and accepting people in law for purposes of accessing the rights of females.

Absolutely!

(Much better way of saying it)

Welcome to the future. Things have changed.

Is this a new mantra? It is just as ridiculous.

plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose is more apt.

@BilindaB

Oh! Isn't she sweet! We lie! For fun, presumably! Or because we are trying to .. erm... well.. nope! Can't work that one out!'

You were either lying or mistaken. Which one? Natalie Wynn and Abigail Thorne both know that they used to be male-bodied, they are not under some delusion that they were born a fully intact biological women with all eggs inside them; they are women - trans-women to be precise (which is a subset of women).

Used to be male-bodied? They are still male-bodied, they are not female-bodied. This is part of the error in thinking that posters are talking of. It’s in two parts: i) denial that a transwoman is a male person, in order to ii) suggest they are now female, because iii) biological sex is only binary when a person is transitioning “if they aren’t male, they must be female”, but for everyone else it’s a spectrum.

Welcome to the future. Things have changed.

I am sure that we are all very happy to have arrived at the future where a body can be stripped to its molecules and put back together again after tweaking every single cell to recode it to the other sex.

Otherwise, no. Things have not changed. Surgery has become more sophisticated I will grant you, and hormone administration too.

But the present is actually pretty much as it was a couple of decades ago, except now there are people who believe that they can access the rights needed to protect females when they are not actually female. They need their own because they have unique needs.

That is what they should be focused on. Not trying to claim another groups and destabilising that groups with accommodations for them that dilute it for the intended group.

It is rather shortsighted to give a group of women who have been involved in setting those rights up and fighting to progress those rights a superficial new 'mantra'. It is not only shortsighted, but shows your lack of knowledge and understanding in those rights.

Oh and also that cheesy statement is typical of this whole bandwagon. Thinking that soundbites and smug retorts of the type used by 12-year-olds in arguments with their mum, equals some kind of convincing position.

Yes indeed.

Used to be male-bodied?
They are still male-bodied, they are not female-bodied.
This is part of the error in thinking that posters are talking of. It’s in two parts: i) denial that a transwoman is a male person, in order to ii) suggest they are now female, because iii) biological sex is only binary when a person is transitioning “if they aren’t male, they must be female”, but for everyone else it’s a spectrum.

Excellent point. Also called "having one's cake and eating it".

it's their life, their business..

To some degree it is. However, it does become other people's business when trans rights negatively impact / errode women's rights. There is also the small matter of safeguards for children. Safeguarding is everyones business.

Welcome to the future. Things have changed

In a fantastical transhumanistic, non -earth based planet, maybe, but not on the earth as we know it. Sex is real and always will be. It will always have profound implications, and will most likely always be subject to some form of social shaping and construction.

And I would imagine very soon dictionaries will include trans-women under the definition of woman

That ship has long sailed since the issue is now right their in public view and the issues around safeguards are obvious to all. The house of cards is tumbling.

#welcometothefuture.

Welcome to the future. Things have changed

As we continually witness from the existence of movements such as 'Me Too' - and from looking around the world, it is clear some things really haven't changed. Females are still subject to aggression from males, and male pattern behaviours continues as ever.Females are still expected to put up, shove up, and shut up.......

If sex no longer existed as a meaningful reality there would be no 'trans'. 'Trans is entirely founded on rejecting sex based constructions.

You are either mistaken or lying, I wonder which. Which makes me doubt some of the other names you list.

Then I suggest you might like to look them up. Examples are very easy to find. You trip over some very prominent ones on twitter who are regarded as 'influencers'. Their blogs get posted on FWR quite a bit as appeals to authority.

Females are still subject to aggression from males, and male pattern behaviours continues as ever.Females are still expected to put up, shove up, and shut up.......

I have noticed this quite a bit over the past few days. I don't think that people realise just how hard a lifetime of socialisation is to change, and how easy it is to slip back into when challenged.