Kathleen Stock OBE: Trans Women Aren't Women : A discussion

[Childrenofthestones]

It's a view held by most people, so why has it become so controversial to state that trans women aren't women? On this episode of "So What You're Saying Is..." (#SWYI) we are joined by Prof. Kathleen Stock OBE, professor of philosophy at the University of Sussex and author of the best-selling book: "Material Girls: Why Reality Matters for Feminism".

Prof. Stock discusses the issues of sex vs. gender and gender identity, and explains how trans activists, arguing that gender is psychological not physical, now claim that womanhood & manhood are genders in a social, rather than biological, sense.

She discusses the possible motives for Stonewall's decision to become so actively involved in trans rights, as well as the vilification of its outspoken critics such as Germaine Greer and Julie Bindell. Prof. Stock has herself been the target of campaigns to silence, cancel and no platform.

Prof. Stock also discusses the negative impact the more extreme trans rights positions are having on women (changing rooms, public toilets, prisons etc.) as well as the young, and gays & lesbians.

@KarenOkefe

Havent watched the video however to me, trans women are women, the worst of men pretending to be trans women to get into womens spaces is a MEN problem not a trans problem, aswell as this I would feel much more comfortable with a fully transitioned trans women using a womans restroom than a fully transitioned trans man using the restroom of his sex, we need to help trans people belong as they gi through much more than the average woman

Tell me more about what they, the class of 'trans women's [sic], go through, please. Given that the vast majority have no hormones or surgery and only 'socially transition' later in life, once they've climbed the career ladder using all their male privilege. Usually after fathering several children too.

Flounce to me is not neutral.

It doesn't just mean leave, in reality.

It invokes leave in an overblown, dramatic strop and make sure everyone notices.

I don't see it as particularly equated with women though. But about a certain sense of. How dare you. Ego.

It's an exaggerated feminine thing. From films. USA ones. Big dresses. Beautiful spoilt women.

It's about being childish.

Yes we use it on here so maybe fair point.

However it's behaviour much beloved of the sort of female stars that drag queens emulate. If you want to see a proper full hair swing argue flounce that's the realm of drag really.

So yet again we come back to.

Men creating behaviour for women in the media for men and women to laugh at, which then becomes a thing associated with women even though it's really not something women do any more then men and certainly not like? a Hollywood golden age star. That male created behaviour is then associated with femininity, and adopted by men in certain groups.

It's not actually anything to do with women.

I expect some women flounce well but you know what, they've learnt it as well.

It's all fake. Manufactured. Male gaze. It's so dull.

And as it's all male gaze and a mysoginist society where women are 2d stereotypes. Yep. That's all it is.

It's just a total depressing confirmation of what I always thought. But hoped wasnt true.

@KarenOkefe

Havent watched the video however to me, trans women are women, the worst of men pretending to be trans women to get into womens spaces is a MEN problem not a trans problem, aswell as this I would feel much more comfortable with a fully transitioned trans women using a womans restroom than a fully transitioned trans man using the restroom of his sex, we need to help trans people belong as they gi through much more than the average woman

Where do you live out of interest?

We don't have restrooms.
We have toilets, bogs, lavs. Around here. People will say going for a slash, going to the shitter. Etc etc

My Scottish friend says cludgie.

Dunno about Welsh/ NI. Or other local phrases.

Also obv going to the ladies/ gents.

My nan said spend a penny! I remember why as well :)

Anyway. Restroom.

If you are in USA or have strong enough ties there to use the language.

I've heard that the bogs there often have big gaps. Like you can see round the edges. So eyes are averted when walking down.

My mate in USA said this and I've heard it elsewhere.

Is that true? I can only assume it is.

And hence why given we are all expected for some reason to argue about USA focussed stuff. The apparent fact there are weird fucking really gappy bogs over there (everywhere? No idea) makes it very obvious why bogs are a massive deal over there.

I love this place. Vogon poetry and blenders. Seriously, I'm watching a scary thriller and laughing my head off at this thread.

The blender will haunt me until next week at least.

And, Campervan69 I guess I'm a Year older, but same childhood. Just the same.

@nicegerbil slightly off topic but you've reminded me off the news article today about John Lewis introducing a Jellycat toy dragon which is called 'Fud' (which Jellycat have advised is a shortened name - I think the full name is Fudflutter or something). Clearly they don't have anyone Scottish on their marketing team as fud means something very different up here!

Thank you OP, I found the video very informative. I am off to buy Kathleen's book now. I was starting to get my head around some of the issues (my DD is kind of caught up in the whole lesbian/trans/non binary confusion- interestingly she 'came out' as 'gay' first of all- sad that she didn't even consider the word lesbian), so I need to know about this stuff now. My view is she's a young girl going through puberty and that's confusing enough, without having to worry about if she's in the wrong bloody body! I didn't even twig that one of the motivators for stonewall was financial. That makes me really angry. I was very pleased to see 2 homosexual people discussing this, and to begin to get my head around how it negatively affects their hard one rights and misconceptions. Very illuminating. Thank you.

Wait- yikes!

Not gonna ask!

My scottish friend has brilliant turns of phrase. I thought I was pretty good but wow. I dunno if it's normal for his locality or he just has the same appreciation of a well turned phrase as me ( but he wins)

John Lewis though. I mean FFS. That's basic stuff surely!

Look @Imasoulman nobody is denying that you exist. THAT is the crap we are discussing here, the shit you say you do not do. It is a complete perversion of everything many GC women here, and in real life, think and say. I know that because of the many and varied discussions I have had with very many of them.

You only have to read many of the threads here to see, usually in response to some Twitter Twat or Monitor coming and trying to stir things up, to see the lie in the statement that GC women deny transwomen the right to exist it's all crap. That you have repeated it here is part of the problem you/we have. You belive that and, even when we say nope! Not what I think, you persist. How are we to have any discussion if you cannot stop calling us liars?

We can discuss the possibility of changing sex forever, that's opinion formed on science vs opinion formed on feelings. We all know that!

But if you can't let go of the lies that Stonewall and TRAs have spread so wide, repeated so often that even you, who says she dislikes the actions of Stonewall etc, have internalised and believe despite no GC woman here (or maybe even no woman in real life) has said to you. How would that go?

Hello
Silence
Hello. Why are you not talking to me?
Silence

WE here in MN ARE talking to you. So you obviously DO EXIST! If you can't let go of that lie, no matter how deeply you have internalised it, how can we talk? What will any talk produce?

See above for the kind of angry, circular rubbish that kind of talk would produce!

Oh the "denying our existence" stuff is so ridiculous.

If a Christian tries to convert me to Christianity and I tell them I don't believe in their god, I'm not saying they don't exist, am I. They're right there!

Not agreeing that a man magically becomes a woman by saying so, or that there is such a thing as an inner essential "gender identity" is a matter of belief, I don't believe it, you do. You're entitled to your beliefs but you don't get to force them on others. If you do try to force them others and they say no thanks, they are not denying you exist. They are disagreeing with you.

Meanwhile transactivists are literally, actively trying to erase the existence of sex and biological women as legal categories. And crowing about it sating things like "enjoy your erasure". Projection much?

Look @Imasoulman nobody is denying that you exist. THAT is the crap we are discussing here, the shit you say you do not do. It is a complete perversion of everything many GC women here, and in real life, think and say. I know that because of the many and varied discussions I have had with very many of them.

Of course transwomen exist. They are people, humans with the same rights as all humans in this country, and additional protections via the EA2010 in respect of "gender reassignment."

But ...

What I object to s the kind of gender extremist ideology which requires that women no longer exist. That women as "adult human females" are erased, and that the fundamental definition of woman = female = large gamete haver (for any mammal) is denied.

THAT is the real denial of an oppressed group's existence.

I could go on. Here's a few example of 'normal' and regular erasure of women & girls:

• The regular denial of women & girl's lived experience of domestic violence
• The regular denial of women & girl's lived experience of sexual violence & harassment
• The regular denial of women & girl's lived experience of street violence & harassment *The regular denial or erasure of women's bodily experiences specifically related to their physiological biological sex: the hiding away & shaming of menstruation & menopause *The regular erasure of women's bodily experiences of pregnancy, particularly in the workplace and in the medical/health care context. eg made redundant or sacked while pregnant (usually because pregnant); maltreatment by health care professionals during pregnancy, labour & post-partum.

Think on that for starters, and reflect on the privilege that men are born into, whether or not they "feel" they are men.

I believe that transwomen who have fully transitioned are in fact women

And some Christians believe that the blessing of a priest means that the bread and wine are in fact Jesus' body.

I believe transwomen are women. They are not the same as 'biological' women, and they know that. But they are a subsection of 'women' in the same way an adoptive mother is a subset of 'mothers' I am adopted btw. I assume nobody here would say 'that woman is not your mother, she did not give birth to you, she did not go through pregnancy with you, these are the vital things that make a mother' nor would they say that adoptive mothers somehow 'erase' biological mothers.

You can believe what you like BilindaB but facts are facts and reality is reality, transwomen are not women, they are not a subsection of women, women are adult human females, transwomen are not, transwomen come under the category of adult human males.

No, I wouldn't say that an adoptive mother is not a mother. But it's not a similar analogy to transwomen's relationship to women. Going along the same lines of the analogy you suggested would be a supportive neighbour who has provided a child with something similar to parental support - they still aren't that child's parent.

And there seems to be a fair amount of trans activists who insist that someone can literally change sex. I've seen some people go further and insist that transwomen were born as women which then poses the question as to what they are transitioning from.

'You can believe what you like BilindaB but facts are facts and reality is reality, transwomen are not women, they are not a subsection of women, women are adult human females, transwomen are not, transwomen come under the category of adult human males.'

compare

'You can believe what you like BilindaB but facts are facts and reality is reality, adoptive mothers are not mothers, they are not a subsection of mothers, mothers are adult human females who have given birth after carrying their own child inside them for nine months, adoptive mothers are not, adoptive mothers come under the category of adult human females unable to have children. They may adopt, but they will never be truly mothers.'

@BilindaB

'You can believe what you like BilindaB but facts are facts and reality is reality, transwomen are not women, they are not a subsection of women, women are adult human females, transwomen are not, transwomen come under the category of adult human males.'

compare

'You can believe what you like BilindaB but facts are facts and reality is reality, adoptive mothers are not mothers, they are not a subsection of mothers, mothers are adult human females who have given birth after carrying their own child inside them for nine months, adoptive mothers are not, adoptive mothers come under the category of adult human females unable to have children. They may adopt, but they will never be truly mothers.'

Not the same at all. Mother is the female parent. Which is why lesbian parents are both mothers.

Also, if an adoptive mother claims to have given birth to her child, we would question her mental health.

No, BilindaB transwomen are not biologically women, women are defined as adult human females.

Adoptive mothers come under the title of mothers the same as step mothers do as they are female, only females can have the title of mother as the law made quite clear in the case of Freddie McConnell who tried to change the law regarding what a mother is and in the same way that Caitlyn Jenner's children still refer to Caitlyn as their father. Humans cannot change sex, correct sex determinants are crucial in law and in life.

Transwomen are transwomen free to live their lives as such and should rightly be able to so with dignity and without discrimination, but they are not women.

And a woman can simultaneously be a mother to children she has given birth to and to children she has adopted.

A human being cannot simultaneously be a man and a woman.

Analogy fail.

@BilindaB

'You can believe what you like BilindaB but facts are facts and reality is reality, transwomen are not women, they are not a subsection of women, women are adult human females, transwomen are not, transwomen come under the category of adult human males.'

compare

'You can believe what you like BilindaB but facts are facts and reality is reality, adoptive mothers are not mothers, they are not a subsection of mothers, mothers are adult human females who have given birth after carrying their own child inside them for nine months, adoptive mothers are not, adoptive mothers come under the category of adult human females unable to have children. They may adopt, but they will never be truly mothers.'

Nonsense. Mother means female parent. One subset of mothers are females who parent a child but who haven't given birth.

Mother also means female who has given birth. The word therefore describes both a biological status and a social function.

Man and women are not similarly descriptions of social functions. Well, not unless you're living in antedeluvian times and believe that there are social things men are not allowed to do on the basis of their sex and that women aren't allowed to do on the basis of their sex.

Anyway, here's how the categorisation works if you don't believe in TWAW:

Not all females are mothers, but all mothers are female. Not all mothers give birth to their children. Most do, but some adopt a child who has a different birth mother.

Also, not all adoptive mothers are unable to have children. Many are indeed unable, but some do have children of their own. Often that happens after adoption, when the pressure is off.

@BilindaB

I believe transwomen are women. They are not the same as 'biological' women, and they know that. But they are a subsection of 'women' in the same way an adoptive mother is a subset of 'mothers' I am adopted btw. I assume nobody here would say 'that woman is not your mother, she did not give birth to you, she did not go through pregnancy with you, these are the vital things that make a mother' nor would they say that adoptive mothers somehow 'erase' biological mothers.

Yup, and some people believe in the Loch Ness monster or that they've been abducted by aliens for medical research or that there's a heaven where good people go when they die. None of these beliefs have any evidence to back them up. They are irrational.

Your adoptive mother analogy is a false one. To be a mother of any kind you have to be female and male people are not and never can be female.

" they are a subsection of 'women' in the same way an adoptive mother is a subset of 'mothers' I am adopted btw. I assume nobody here would say 'that woman is not your mother, she did not give birth to you, she did not go through pregnancy with you, these are the vital things that make a mother' nor would they say that adoptive mothers somehow 'erase' biological mothers."

This is a super weak analogy. The reason adoptive mothers are 'mothers' is because being a mother is a role and a relationship. It is possible to take up the role of being a mother to someone else by parenting them. Being a woman isn't a role - it isn't a function that anyone can fulfil.

Also, taking your analogy at face value, trans rights activists are the equivalent of an adoptive mother who insists that she is exactly the same as birthing mothers in all regards, that she did get pregnant and give birth (and we all have to go along with that fiction, or else we are bigots), that there is literally NO difference whatsoever between birthing mothers and adoptive mothers, that birthing mothers are insensitive bigots for talking about pregnancy and giving birth so the language should be entirely changed so birthing mothers now have to talk about 'picking their baby up from the orphanage' instead of giving birth, etc.

The problem isn't so much that we are expected to accept that trans woman are woman. The problem is that we must accept they are women in EXACTLY the same way as female women are women. There is NO appreciable difference between the two. Poor Chinmamanda Adichie got into deep trouble for saying 'women are women, and trans women are trans women. 'They don't want to be regarded or treated as a sub-category of woman - they want to be treated as the paradigm category of women. We are expected to go along with the fantasy that they are exactly the same as us in every possible regard, or else we are hideous bigots - sexually they are the same, bodily they are the same (so they get access to female sports), psychologically they are the same. So yes, they are erasing the differences because they insist they are exactly the same as female women!

I still dont get why there cant be Trans Pride - what the hell is wrong with Trans that it cant be described as such? Transwomen and Transmen exist - of course they do, but there is no way TWs should inveigle their way into natal womens spaces. And the reasons for this are described over and over with back up statistics by many well informed posters on here.

'The problem isn't so much that we are expected to accept that trans woman are woman. The problem is that we must accept they are women in EXACTLY the same way as female women are women.'

All the transwomen (and transmen) I know, or follow on YouTube, do not claim they are exactly the same as a biological woman. Perhaps there are a few outliers who say stuff like this, but I've never come across it. Trans Women know they are not the exact same as a biological woman. Can you give me some examples of Trans People who claim there is absolutely no difference at all between a trans-person and a person of the gender they have transitioned /are transitioning to?

@BilindaB: there are so many examples it is hard to know where to begin! Despite the Equality Act explicitly saying that trans women may be excluded from female only spaces, there has been a campaign from Stonewall and other trans rights activists to get trans women into female only spaces. A trans woman recently became the head of Rape Crisis Scotland when the position was advertised as female only. Trans women who have not undergone any surgery or hormonal treatment are being sent to female only prisons, and have sexually assaulted women there. Trans women insist on being allowed to compete in female sports (see Fallon Fox, Laurel Hubbard, Veronica Ivy). When women insist on female only spaces they are called bigots, even though we have rights to them.

Also, the world of lesbian dating is absolutely dire at the moment (and I can personally attest to this. ) Lesbians are expected to be open to dating trans women with penises because penises are a female organ if they are attached to females. One of the leading lesbian websites recently published a very long piece by a trans author which was entirely about their penis - (it was called "this is an essay about penises.") Lesbian sex guides online now include guides on how to have sex with penises. There is absolutely NO acknowledgement that lesbians may only be interested in biological women. In fact, I'm now alienated from the LGBT community because to admit that is now considered to be bigotry. The message at the moment is - trans women are women, lesbians are attracted to women, so you have to include trans women in your dating pool. Oh, and penises are female.