Kathleen Stock OBE: Trans Women Aren't Women : A discussion

[Childrenofthestones]

It's a view held by most people, so why has it become so controversial to state that trans women aren't women? On this episode of "So What You're Saying Is..." (#SWYI) we are joined by Prof. Kathleen Stock OBE, professor of philosophy at the University of Sussex and author of the best-selling book: "Material Girls: Why Reality Matters for Feminism".

Prof. Stock discusses the issues of sex vs. gender and gender identity, and explains how trans activists, arguing that gender is psychological not physical, now claim that womanhood & manhood are genders in a social, rather than biological, sense.

She discusses the possible motives for Stonewall's decision to become so actively involved in trans rights, as well as the vilification of its outspoken critics such as Germaine Greer and Julie Bindell. Prof. Stock has herself been the target of campaigns to silence, cancel and no platform.

Prof. Stock also discusses the negative impact the more extreme trans rights positions are having on women (changing rooms, public toilets, prisons etc.) as well as the young, and gays & lesbians.

Wow, how arrogant of you to suggest that you have better awareness of being trans than a transwoman who has been living with this for 5 decades. Yep! That's me. Arrogant to think that my knowledge of the emotional stress medical transition has on people - after 30+ years of helping two friends through their surgeries might be relevant. As opposed to someone who keeps on saying they are a non transitioned transwoman! So now you say you have experience, so that makes us about even on that!!

And, as others have aid, I am not the only arrogant poster here. The difference is I can hear you and might after further listening conced you have a point! But only if you keep on engaging in a proper 2-way discussion.

I would be interested to know how you think it "feels" to be trans. No idea. I don't claim to be able to put myself into someone elses body or mind. I am a female. Always have been. That's how I was before I was born! I CANNOT know.

I'd like to know how, if you cannot put it into words, you thik that how you feel IS like a woman? I am female, a woman. And I can't tell you! I am just me! Independent, educated, bolshy and not particularly 'feminine'. So, if you use the same stereotypes Stonewall uses, I am probably non binary. As, I suspect most women who care to stop and think about it are!

Just because I can't define it doesn't mean it isn't real It is intangible and that, for many things, is just a thought or feeling, wholy of the mind, a psychological phenomenon. (I was a multidisciplinarian, taught behavioural psych too!)

As for being beaten, ostracised, humiliated. Well yep! I am female. That REALLY does go with the SEX I am - and, as I have said here a lot, I am a rape survivor. So I am not guessing!

It is possible to change your sex to a point that the average person would define as having changed sex. That is another ludicrous self referencing piece of anecdata though! There are many studies linked in many threads that show that is not true. As soon as people understand what' transitioned' actually means they change their mind about transwomen (or men) being akin to women (or men)!

It's stonewall and TRA's that are causing all this angst and discourse You said you would support women against this. But you are still here telling women EXACTLY the same thngs Stonewall does!

I understand that you don't accept that and that's fine, I guess if you live in an echo chamber it's hard to listen to other opinions. That'll be the decades of teaching human phsyiology!

All this is ridiculous. Every transwoman is a transwoman and shoudl celebrate that.

Every transman is a transman and shoudl celebrate that.

And all should now, because of Stonewall and TRAs, stand up and say loudly and often "I feel that I want to be a wo/man. I know I cannot change my sex but I wish to live, to present myseflf as though I am and I will respect the woshes of wo/men whilst I do"

Then we could all discuss this without tall the ridiculous "A woman is someone who says she is a owman" malarkey! An honest 2-way dialogue that might find acceptabel compromises.

But the next move is yours - solely because of Stonewall and TRAs. Women are saying no... what is your response?

God I REALLY should have proffed that better. I have no excuse, I have a new keyboard now

I know how I feel. Just because I can't define it doesn't mean it isn't real.

We have seen this before. Interesting? I think so.

Of course you being unable to define something doesn’t mean it isn't real.

But you thinking you know how you feel doesn’t mean it is real, either. You might be mistaken, even in sincerely claiming to know something, and even about how you think you feel.

“ I know how I feel; when I have a few drinks, I feel I am the life and soul of the party ,” is no evidence the speaker is really the life and soul of the party, even after a few drinks. Rather the opposite, really.

Likewise, “ I know how I feel; I feel I am a woman ,” is no evidence the speaker is a woman. (Again, rather the opposite.)

I am sorry and all. But have a think about this. People get confused because if it is true I know x , it follows that x is true … However, saying (or thinking , believing …) I know x does not entail that I do know x . So a claim, “I know x ” generally does not guarantee the truth of x (even if made in complete sincerity).

Strange, is it not? Knowledge and truth, interesting. But, actually, you very likely already knew this. You perhaps just did not think about it enough.

‘ Sometimes I feel like a motherless child ,’ Paul Robeson sang. Sometimes, me too, I do feel like a motherless child – I know I do! For all that, I had a mother, just like you all.

Amazing how deeply and how much consideration we are willling and able to post on this!

Subjective and objectie truths! Who'd have thought we'd be getting that existential?

@NiceGerbil I think you're very right and that's a much more subtle and accurate take on public attitudes.

One of the reasons we are in such an insoluble argument is the effort to take something indefinable, fluid and unrelated to physical facts, and translate it into first an absolute slogan, and then into the law, which has to be firmly and publicly definable, with exceptions all labelled and dealt with in advance for definable reasons. The two don't fit.

'It's a view held by most people,'

Do you have evidence for that?

Yep! That's me. Arrogant to think that my knowledge of the emotional stress medical transition has on people - after 30+ years of helping two friends through their surgeries might be relevant. As opposed to someone who keeps on saying they are a non transitioned transwoman! So now you say you have experience, so that makes us about even on that!!

I did not say that your experience was not relevant, you stated that you had more of an insight than I do, I found that a strange conclusion given that you know very little about me.

And, as others have aid, I am not the only arrogant poster here. The difference is I can hear you and might after further listening conced you have a point! But only if you keep on engaging in a proper 2-way discussion.

I appreciate that and in turn I have listened to many people on here, including yourself on more than one occasion. I have taken on board what has been said re safe spaces, stonewall, tra's, sports etc etc but I have to draw the line at denying my own existence and I will always believe on a practical, face value level it is possible to change sex.

I would be interested to know how you think it "feels" to be trans.* No idea.
I don't claim to be able to put myself into someone elses body or mind. I am a female. Always have been. That's how I was before I was born! I CANNOT know.*
Nor can I but I am expected to explain "what it feels like to be a woman" pretty much everyday. Which as I have said I cant do

As for being beaten, ostracised, humiliated. Well yep! I am female. That REALLY does go with the SEX I am - and, as I have said here a lot, I am a rape survivor. So I am not guessing!
I am genuinely sorry for you anybody else that has suffered in such a way, yes its horrible that it goes with being female

It is possible to change your sex to a point that the average person would define as having changed sex. That is another ludicrous self referencing piece of anecdata though! There are many studies linked in many threads that show that is not true. As soon as people understand what' transitioned' actually means they change their mind about transwomen (or men) being akin to women (or men)!

Not at all ludicrous for anyone with an open mind, I still maintain that Joe Public would consider a male who has grown breasts and had a vagina created (I know there is more to being a woman before I get shot down in flames, but for the purpose of this discussion lets keep it simple) would consider that said male was now for all intents and purposes female.

It's stonewall and TRA's that are causing all this angst and discourse You said you would support women against this. But you are still here telling women EXACTLY the same thngs Stonewall does!

Not really no, I am against pretty much everything stonewall and TRA's stand for. And I am happy to fight against them

Then we could all discuss this without tall the ridiculous "A woman is someone who says she is a owman" malarkey! An honest 2-way dialogue that might find acceptabel compromises.

I am happy to compromise , in fact I have done. Though I can't see anyway that females can make compromises in all this and at the same time achieve what they need to .

But the next move is yours - solely because of Stonewall and TRAs. Women are saying no... what is your response?

The damage is done, short of turning the clock back there is no happy compromise for Trans people

would consider that said male was now for all intents and purposes female

except for the purposes of

• childbearing
• heterosexual sex
• medical issues that only apply to people with female bodies (PCOS or cervical cancer for example)
• privacy - I know what a man looks like and I never want to get undressed in front of one I don't know, regardless of what surgery they've had

but yeah apart from that, sure

The damage is done, short of turning the clock back there is no happy compromise for Trans people

suck it up ladies! a happy solution for trans people trumps your needs for privacy, dignity and safety!

@HouseOfGoldandBones

Who is this "average person" who believes that human beings can change sex?

Also, I would never be "arrogant" enough to believe I understand how transwomen feel. If only that were reciprocal.

Having spoken to my brother earlier I have learned that these "average" people do exist. Not sure why we got onto the subject of trans people but anyway. His words were "if I had my cock and balls chopped off and turned into tits and a fanny of course I'd be a woman." Me: "so you think your biological sex would have literally changed?" Him: "of course. If I've had my cock turned into a fanny then I've changed sex" Me: "ummm... errr..."

Mind you he also told me about someone he knows who's had full m2f surgery and now "claims" they're a lesbian. Apparently if they were a man who was attracted to women they didn't need to transition

@334bu

*As a non transitioned trans woman I have a pretty good insight into all this. So I fall into the category you mentioned and consider myself to be a transwoman*

Thank you for your reply. Could I therefore presume that in most cases you might agree with Professor Stock?

Yes indeed, she makes a lot of sense. I will be looking for her book

I still maintain that Joe Public would consider a male who has grown breasts and had a vagina created (I know there is more to being a woman before I get shot down in flames, but for the purpose of this discussion lets keep it simple) would consider that said male was now for all intents and purposes female

Joe Public might think that (although I expect not for all intents and purposes). Josephine Public may well disagree.

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

would consider that said male was now for all intents and purposes female

except for the purposes of

• childbearing
• heterosexual sex
• medical issues that only apply to people with female bodies (PCOS or cervical cancer for example)
• privacy - I know what a man looks like and I never want to get undressed in front of one I don't know, regardless of what surgery they've had

but yeah apart from that, sure

You obviously did not read the entire paragraph, or maybe you did but are so desperate for a reaction you thought you would take one sentence completely out of context ?

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

The damage is done, short of turning the clock back there is no happy compromise for Trans people

suck it up ladies! a happy solution for trans people trumps your needs for privacy, dignity and safety!

Oh look you have done it again, taken one sentence completely out of context and rather pathetically posted it to make out I was saying something completely different.

Why don't you try having a thought of your own and join in the discussion instead of trying to score points.

@HipTightOnions

I still maintain that Joe Public would consider a male who has grown breasts and had a vagina created (I know there is more to being a woman before I get shot down in flames, but for the purpose of this discussion lets keep it simple) would consider that said male was now for all intents and purposes female

Joe Public might think that (although I expect not for all intents and purposes). Josephine Public may well disagree.

Touche

I still maintain that Joe Public would consider a male who has grown breasts and had a vagina created [...] would consider that said male was now for all intents and purposes female.

"Breasts and had a vagina created [...] purposes [...] female."

Very male perspective that.

A tube has been fashioned out of some tissue, which you consider meets the requirements of the purpose of the female body.

Quite telling.

Just watched the video in full with my DH. She is brilliant.

@PearPickingPorky

I still maintain that Joe Public would consider a male who has grown breasts and had a vagina created [...] would consider that said male was now for all intents and purposes female.

"Breasts and had a vagina created [...] purposes [...] female."

Very male perspective that.

A tube has been fashioned out of some tissue, which you consider meets the requirements of the purpose of the female body.

Quite telling.

Don't be ridiculous, you are editing what I wrote. You realise people can read my post and see what you are doing

YouGov:

''when the YouGov survey asked whether or not Britons themselves consider a transgender person to be the new gender identity they have adopted, four in ten Britons (40-41%) believe they are, compared to 36% who disagree.'

yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/07/16/where-does-british-public-stand-transgender-rights

''Joe Public might think that (although I expect not for all intents and purposes). Josephine Public may well disagree.''

Follow the link, women are significantly more likely to agree that 'a transwoman is a woman and a transman is a man' than men - 49% of women agree, 29% disagree.

Not at all ludicrous for anyone with an open mind, I still maintain that Joe Public would consider a male who has grown breasts and had a vagina created (I know there is more to being a woman before I get shot down in flames, but for the purpose of this discussion lets keep it simple) would consider that said male was now for all intents and purposes female

Of course "Joe" Public might agree...but a large part of the public see women as no more than a hole to f$ck and boobs to view. This is the ugliest bit of your misogyny... that the simplest way to become a woman is 2 surgical parts with zero biological function, but may "appear" female for only the basest of male desires.

Female breasts and vaginas are designed to grow because of our childbearing function of sex. Nothing more. Thank god for feminism and birth control, abortion and economic opportunities because many women no longer need to be chained to this function against our wishes.

It is not an open mind you seek, but a misogynistic mind. Sadly, Joe Public will provide you many.

@Delphinium20said it better, but I'm struggling to understand what other contexts there are to Joe Public would consider a male who has grown breasts and had a vagina created (I know there is more to being a woman before I get shot down in flames, but for the purpose of this discussion lets keep it simple) would consider that said male was now for all intents and purposes female

having silicone implanted in your chest and a surgically created cavity does not make males female

men who are not generally used to risk assessing males in the way women are may think such cosmetic changes render a man indistinguishable from a woman, but from the point of view of women they'd be quite wrong

in addition, you've glossed over how fucking offensive it is to reduce womanhood to tits and a hole. it's still fucking offensive though.

you are writing from a male perspective

@Delphinium20

Not at all ludicrous for anyone with an open mind, I still maintain that Joe Public would consider a male who has grown breasts and had a vagina created (I know there is more to being a woman before I get shot down in flames, but for the purpose of this discussion lets keep it simple) would consider that said male was now for all intents and purposes female

Of course "Joe" Public might agree...but a large part of the public see women as no more than a hole to f$ck and boobs to view. This is the ugliest bit of your misogyny... that the simplest way to become a woman is 2 surgical parts with zero biological function, but may "appear" female for only the basest of male desires.

Female breasts and vaginas are designed to grow because of our childbearing function of sex. Nothing more. Thank god for feminism and birth control, abortion and economic opportunities because many women no longer need to be chained to this function against our wishes.

It is not an open mind you seek, but a misogynistic mind. Sadly, Joe Public will provide you many.

Fourth post tonight to deliberately twist what I have said.

Carry on having a "discussion" amongst yourselves.

I'm fed up having my words twisted and taken out of context to suit your own agendas.

Pathetic!

I'm fed up having my words twisted and taken out of context to suit your own agendas

or analysed and understood

happy flounce!

My dad thought that man who had his penis removed was a woman

I asked if he was saying that if he lost his penis in a tragic accident he would be a woman

He said no obviously

People don’t think things through

Oh don’t flounce when im agreeing with you!