GRA Reform, Legal Self Declaration, has no effect on access to spaces

[ool0n]

I'm wondering given the recent convincing defeat of gender critical ideology in the high court vs EHRC - if the Mumsnet gender critical people finally accept the fact that having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces?

People on the other side of the debate like myself have been explaining to GC people on Twitter for years that having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces so their objection to GRA reform is/was unfounded. I/we based this on -

1. English government legal analysis that stated having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces
2. Scottish government legal analysis ... ditto ...
3. The EA 2010 and GA 2004 text
4. The practical impossibility that a BC (Not an ID document) could be of any use in deciding access

now we have

1. Gender critical crowdfunded challenge to EHRC guidance that says having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces. Comprehensively lost, not even passed the very low bar to even be considered for a Judicial Review.

Given this is the case will gender critical people be reevaluating their assertion "Self ID", as in GRA Reform, must be opposed as it effects access to spaces? Trans people have always been able to "Self ID", in the colloquial sense, into men's and women's spaces. So making it easier for trans people to change their birth certificates only helps them, has no effect on GC feminists, and/or cisgender women and spaces.

(I also wonder if there'll be any introspection as to why an obviously incorrect interpretation of the law was able to become so prevalent in gender critical circles. Maybe listen to groups outside of GC circles a bit more?)

I say we just relabel toilets to penis haver and vagina haver and be done with this stupid discussion with a man who couldn't care less how women feel.

Even if those trans people are not identifiable as trans people. That's true right?
Hang on, you seem to have forgotten about trans men! So, no that's not right.

@lonel

There was a young man on mumsnet Who claimed to be wise and cis-het But his sneaking on Twitter Made him seem rather bitter And he didn't answer the question as set

@sanluca

I always wonder which stats and why are collected. Are negative stats collected, like are women using communal changing rooms less? Are women shunning single gender swimming sessions? Do women leave when a transwoman comes in? Has any of these countries, who all with the exception maybe of Iceland, ever collected any stats about how women feel with all facilities being mixed sex?

So all we have to show the disaster growing is the actual cases where women were harmed, forced out or ignored. Which OP deems not enough. I can only guess because OP sees women as being of lesser value than transwomen.

"So all we have to show the disaster growing is the actual cases where women were harmed, forced out or ignored. "

No, you have to show statistics of what you claim will happen - increased assault - actually happening. Do you not think GC people have a responsibility to demonstrate that what they claim will happen, is happening in these countries?

Do you think it's possible you are wrong. Like in Ireland where a few hundred trans people Self ID'd a year and there are no issues with "men pretending" so they can assault women. Is there any space for self doubt in GC ideology?

Is there any space for self doubt in GC ideology?
Oh definitely. But my lived experience tells me that sex is more important than gender for my safety and dignity. Am I meant to ignore that?

well OP, you said

The only women who "need" that would be people who can't stand being near trans people

that's rather strange. the people who are excluded from single sex women's toilets aren't trans people, they're men.

now...why do you think some women wouldn't want to be in a vulnerable position near men?

Argentina is far from perfect for women, no place is. But why did implementing self ID not make it worse? Why can't you or anyone else provide stats that show it got worse?

Did you even read the article? It says it has got worse.

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

This is interesting. A study about why women in India don't use pulic toilets

wedc-knowledge.lboro.ac.uk/resources/conference/40/Reddy-2794.pdf

one of the reasons was the presence of a male caretaker. I expect those women are hateful bigots?

Have you used public toilets in India? I was avoiding them after the first day as a man hovers over you with paper towels while you try and pee. You have to tip him too, which as a Brit was painfully embarrassing.

But this really isn't comparable is it? The GC view is that even a completely "passing" trans woman can't be allowed to use a loo. Or even a "non-passing" trans woman who minds her own business and doesn't bother anyone, just wants to pee and get safely out.

OP OP

I've given up on doing anything useful tonight and watching you squirm your way around has become grimly fascinating

so let's carry on

why do you think some women wouldn't want to be in a vulnerable position near men?

No, you have to show statistics of what you claim will happen - increased assault - actually happening. Do you not think GC people have a responsibility to demonstrate that what they claim will happen, is happening in these countries?

No that is not good enough. The bar for partaking in public life is not not being assaulted or harrassed. Women have human rights, the right to dignity and respect, and that includes not having to choose between getting undressed with male strangers in the womens changing room or not going swimming or play sports.
What countries who want to introduce self id for male people to use the facilities meant for the opposite sex, is how many women will self exclude or be concerned or worried. That is what balancing rights mean.

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

well OP, you said

The only women who "need" that would be people who can't stand being near trans people

that's rather strange. the people who are excluded from single sex women's toilets aren't trans people, they're men.

now...why do you think some women wouldn't want to be in a vulnerable position near men?

The situation we are looking at doesn't include cis men, we are talking about trans women. Even fully passing trans women with GRCs, who've donated to "A Woman's Place" and had articles published in the Guardian defending Julie Bindel. The most inoffensive trans woman you can imagine, she's not allowed into your mythical "single sex" space as she'd degrade it for you, pollute it, it would be "mixed sex" then and no good for your purposes.

Why is that? How does her presence affect you, even if she isn't there at the same time, just having the right to use that space degrades it.

oh dear, more comprehension issues

you didn't even skim the paper about women using public toilets in India then?

I thought this bit was quite interesting

Women feel more secure if there is a women caretaker. Although they don’t expect the caretaker to clean the toilets themselves, they believe that the toilets are better maintained. They feel secure enough to wait
or rest near a toilet with a women caretaker.

I wonder why they might feel that way?

shall we try to use our imaginations ?

I've given up on doing anything useful tonight and watching you squirm your way around has become grimly fascinating

Snap. I once saw a similar thread described as performance art.

But this really isn't comparable is it?
Actually it is in a lot of ways. Girls avoid mixed toilets at school in the UK. Its already causing problems.

The situation we are looking at doesn't include cis men, we are talking about trans women.
Bashes head against brick wall..

@sanluca

No, you have to show statistics of what you claim will happen - increased assault - actually happening. Do you not think GC people have a responsibility to demonstrate that what they claim will happen, is happening in these countries?

No that is not good enough. The bar for partaking in public life is not not being assaulted or harrassed. Women have human rights, the right to dignity and respect, and that includes not having to choose between getting undressed with male strangers in the womens changing room or not going swimming or play sports.
What countries who want to introduce self id for male people to use the facilities meant for the opposite sex, is how many women will self exclude or be concerned or worried. That is what balancing rights mean.

Are you saying you don't agree with the GC claim that self ID is a "green light for predators"? That's a direct quote. Because either they are wrong, and the stats say they are wrong, or somehow these assaults are going unrecorded.

The situation we are looking at doesn't include cis men, we are talking about trans women

well you are. in a slightly foam flecked way if I may say so

I'm talking about men. that's who is excluded from a single sex women's toilet.

now, why might women prefer to use a toilet with no men in it?

www.walesonline.co.uk/news/education/pupils-missing-school-because-dont-15839558

Lost a bit of the sentence there.

What countries who want to introduce self id for male people to be able yo use the facilities meant for the opposite sex, should do, is check how many women will self exclude or be concerned or worried prior to introducing self id. So that they can balance between the impact on womens lives and the impact on transwomens lives if the single sex facilities stayed single sex. Which group is larger? Which group will suffer the greatest loss? Which group will be most at risk?

Which bte also means that the statistics for transwomen in danger in the mens also should be collected. Are there any such statistics to back up the reason transwomen HAVE to use the womens?

Posted too soon. The link might give you a lottle insight into what it's like for women and girls OP. You know the 50% of the population that doesn't matter to you.

Are you saying you don't agree with the GC claim that self ID is a "green light for predators"? That's a direct quote. Because either they are wrong, and the stats say they are wrong, or somehow these assaults are going unrecorded.

So you ARE saying you want women hurt by men who will claim self id, before you will even consider there might the risk is there?

So women do not have the right to single sex anything AND eomen have to be assaulted first AND women have only themselves to blaim if they cannot participate fully in public life because of the lack of single sex facilities.

Wow, women do not even deserve basic human rights according to you.

While not specifically about self ID, these articles about Argentina, Latin America, Ireland and Iceland show women's voices and reporting of violence against them being silenced (and that doesn't even take into account a pp's excellent point about 'negative stats' where women just remove themselves from a situation). Even those who do report are in many cases not believed. The balance is tipped against women in these outstandingly 'equal' countries.

www.feministcurrent.com/2019/04/02/interview-radical-feminism-and-trans-activism-clash-violently-in-argentina

www.nytimes.com/2020/01/28/opinion/latin-america-feminism.html

www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/arid-40223318.html

foreignpolicy.com/2020/07/15/the-misogynist-violence-of-icelands-feminist-paradise/

Loving the poetry by the way! Has Bernard's question been answered yet?