GRA Reform, Legal Self Declaration, has no effect on access to spaces

[ool0n]

I'm wondering given the recent convincing defeat of gender critical ideology in the high court vs EHRC - if the Mumsnet gender critical people finally accept the fact that having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces?

People on the other side of the debate like myself have been explaining to GC people on Twitter for years that having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces so their objection to GRA reform is/was unfounded. I/we based this on -

1. English government legal analysis that stated having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces
2. Scottish government legal analysis ... ditto ...
3. The EA 2010 and GA 2004 text
4. The practical impossibility that a BC (Not an ID document) could be of any use in deciding access

now we have

1. Gender critical crowdfunded challenge to EHRC guidance that says having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces. Comprehensively lost, not even passed the very low bar to even be considered for a Judicial Review.

Given this is the case will gender critical people be reevaluating their assertion "Self ID", as in GRA Reform, must be opposed as it effects access to spaces? Trans people have always been able to "Self ID", in the colloquial sense, into men's and women's spaces. So making it easier for trans people to change their birth certificates only helps them, has no effect on GC feminists, and/or cisgender women and spaces.

(I also wonder if there'll be any introspection as to why an obviously incorrect interpretation of the law was able to become so prevalent in gender critical circles. Maybe listen to groups outside of GC circles a bit more?)

@lonel

Amnesty do a great job on issues like period poverty, they're trans inclusive.... They also called for the disenfranchisement of women who believe sex exists....so progressive.

No they didn't, Chris is a trans man, be he and many intersectional feminists I know say sex exists. twitter.com/MrCrystalMighty/status/1390454420853383174

ool0n ool0n, he's our man. If he can't answer a question no-one can

I hope you get a reply soon @BernardBlackMissesLangCleg, I'm tired of waiting so off to bed.

OP, we know you can't be convinced. You can't see the woods for the trees. We are talking to those who are also concerned about what is going on here. We want them to know that they are not alone in how they feel. We are worried too, but we will not conform.

Single sex toilets don't exist, right?
Wrong.

They've never existed and women use single gender spaces, not single sex.
I'm torn between feeling a glimmer of sympathy for someone who is delusional to think that statement is true and gut-clenching rage at the disregard for women along with the madness of conflation of the words "sex" and "gender". Mostly rage.

Let's try to start you off @ool0n*
repeat after me
'I imagine some women might prefer single sex toilets because...'
and then you say something right there*
for Bernard who has the patience of the little bird in the Brothers Grimm story of the shepherd boy.

Just musing here while waiting for the answer but...can you imagine going on to any forum to tell a group of people that you don't belong to or identify with that you are so much better at understanding their lived experience than they are and thus such a good person? It's like "mansplaining" barely covers it....

@Minezatea

Single sex toilets don't exist, right? Why can't any of you answer this simple question. I believe I am characterising your view correctly - that any space that lets in trans people is "mixed sex" - but you won't clarify. If that is the case, and I believe it is, then they don't exist in the UK. They've never existed and women use single gender spaces, not single sex.

I don't think you are actually asking a question? As much as I can interpret one I think that male-bodied people in female spaces makes it mixed sex. Like most women, I don't have a gender identity, so they certainly can't be single-gender spaces. So now can you answer the question you were asked about why people might WANT single-sex spaces, even accepting that what many women have wanted for a long time may sometimes have been breached.

*Healthcare, I believe the WHO do great work on reproductive inequalities, in balancing out the differences in care. They're trans inclusive... www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-48448804
Amnesty do a great job on issues like period poverty, they're trans inclusive.... www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2019/05/five-activists-breaking-taboos-around-menstruation/
The Royal College of Obstret and Gyn do great work, I was recently reading a paper of theirs on healthcare disparities for WoC. They're trans inclusive...
www.rcog.org.uk/en/careers-training/specialty-training-curriculum/core-curriculum/current/cip13/

Once again there's a claim - being trans inclusive will hurt X - even a cursory examination of the evidence shows that not to be the case at all. Unless you can show where these organisations are hurting all women by being trans inclusive?*

Can you explain to me how we can get data showing how things affect biological females if we have no way of recording who is a biological female? Your links do not answer that.

Now they can want those spaces, that isn't how the question was framed. It was said they prefer them, how can they when they don't exist? I agree with you many GC feminists want these mythical "single sex" spaces. How are they going to police it so no "male bodied" people get in and instantly turn it into a "mixed sex" space? How does the space change when a stealth trans woman gets in and they don't know it?

"Can you explain to me how we can get data showing how things affect biological females if we have no way of recording who is a biological female? Your links do not answer that."

• your assertion is that there is "no way" of recording someone sex characteristics if you are trans inclusive? That's obvious nonsense, trans people are well aware of what biology is typically male or female, have no issues with Drs recording theirs, definitely no issue with them recording cis peoples! (where necessary obviously)

There once was a man named ool0n
Who said the women of Mumsnet can't go on
Saying no to men
This simply must end
And so I'll deal with it by boring on and on about stats and being completely unable to comprehend and answer a simple question

No they didn't, Chris is a trans man, be he and many intersectional feminists I know say sex exists.
Oh I didn't realise Chris had been made spokesperson for Amnesty International. My bad.

@ChewtonRoad

Single sex toilets don't exist, right? Wrong.

They've never existed and women use single gender spaces, not single sex.
I'm torn between feeling a glimmer of sympathy for someone who is delusional to think that statement is true and gut-clenching rage at the disregard for women along with the madness of conflation of the words "sex" and "gender". Mostly rage.

Let's try to start you off @ool0n*
repeat after me
'I imagine some women might prefer single sex toilets because...'
and then you say something right there*
for Bernard who has the patience of the little bird in the Brothers Grimm story of the shepherd boy.

Wrong how? You define "mixed sex" as spaces that let trans people in? We know the law has allowed trans people in since 1999 by precedent, before then they were just using them in a legal grey area.

That logically means all spaces were "mixed sex" by gender critical definition. That means they all are "mixed sex" and will remain so. Ann Sinnott made that argument to the EHRC in her court case. The judge agreed with the EHRC that trans people, GRC or no, are allowed in.

ool0n is a man
likes to tell women what to think
it's not going well though

my first ever haiku

very proud

I really don’t understand why you can’t answer the question

I really don’t

Its fuck all to do with gc women at this point

Can you understand why some women need single sex places

@lonel

No they didn't, Chris is a trans man, be he and many intersectional feminists I know say sex exists. Oh I didn't realise Chris had been made spokesperson for Amnesty International. My bad.

You mean Chris, myself, all the trans inclusive feminists I know are somehow being disenfranchised by Amnesty without knowing it? Or just the women who say sex exists?

I'll say it now - sex exists .... Waiting for Amnesty to cancel my direct debit ... Any minute now.

The judge agreed with the EHRC that trans people, GRC or no, are allowed in

oh dear, this again.

do you have some sort of short term memory difficulty?

The judge agreed no such thing. Even the seriously dodgy EHRC guidance is that people who identify as members of the opposite sex can be excluded from services set aside for th sex they identify as on a case by case basis

You don't know about the infamous Amnesty Ireland letter then I take it?

@RufustheBadgeringReindeer

I really don’t understand why you can’t answer the question

I really don’t

Its fuck all to do with gc women at this point

Can you understand why some women need single sex places

This

oh shit

6 syllables in the last line of my haiku

back to the drawing board on that one

my first ever haiku

very proud

Brava Bernard

@RufustheBadgeringReindeer

I really don’t understand why you can’t answer the question

I really don’t

Its fuck all to do with gc women at this point

Can you understand why some women need single sex places

Maybe I can make this easier for you ... I can't answer a nonsensical question. Do GCs prefer round squares? Yes or no, why won't you answer my question!!

Women do not prefer "single sex" spaces as you define them, as they don't exist. You mean spaces with no trans people in them. Those don't exist, they can't exist by law, so they don't prefer something that doesn't exist, and currently can't exist according to the law of the land. They do however prefer to use the women's spaces we have, which are according to GCs "mixed sex", why is that do you think?

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

oh shit

6 syllables in the last line of my haiku

back to the drawing board on that one

Try a limerick

@lonel

You don't know about the infamous Amnesty Ireland letter then I take it?

No, sounds like something I'd like to read though. Got a link?

Just drop the "though" Bernard?

Its not going well