GRA Reform, Legal Self Declaration, has no effect on access to spaces

[ool0n]

I'm wondering given the recent convincing defeat of gender critical ideology in the high court vs EHRC - if the Mumsnet gender critical people finally accept the fact that having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces?

People on the other side of the debate like myself have been explaining to GC people on Twitter for years that having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces so their objection to GRA reform is/was unfounded. I/we based this on -

1. English government legal analysis that stated having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces
2. Scottish government legal analysis ... ditto ...
3. The EA 2010 and GA 2004 text
4. The practical impossibility that a BC (Not an ID document) could be of any use in deciding access

now we have

1. Gender critical crowdfunded challenge to EHRC guidance that says having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces. Comprehensively lost, not even passed the very low bar to even be considered for a Judicial Review.

Given this is the case will gender critical people be reevaluating their assertion "Self ID", as in GRA Reform, must be opposed as it effects access to spaces? Trans people have always been able to "Self ID", in the colloquial sense, into men's and women's spaces. So making it easier for trans people to change their birth certificates only helps them, has no effect on GC feminists, and/or cisgender women and spaces.

(I also wonder if there'll be any introspection as to why an obviously incorrect interpretation of the law was able to become so prevalent in gender critical circles. Maybe listen to groups outside of GC circles a bit more?)

@Anovaneway

ool0n do you think there is ever a need to separate some spaces based on whether people have a vulva or a penis?

A phalloplasty and labioplasty clinic?

You had to use women's spaces to get a GRC, two years living "in role" is a requirement to get a GRC. Debbie Hayton says she uses women's spaces and she has no GRC. The view you espouse isn't even followed by the few trans people who follow GC ideology.

You do NOT need to use womens spaces to get a GRC. How many times do I need to say this. Are you really going to argue with me over GRC requirements????

Debbie Hayton still has a penis I believe and according to an article they wrote a self confessed AGP. Is that who you want to hold up as your shining example? A person with a penis who us AGP?

@ool0n why might some women prefer single sex toilets?

Absolutely, which is why I've tried to cite statistics for what the majority of trans people do and believe as I can't speak for them. So far no one has any answer to that.

Yet you continue to speak for them. Even though it's been requested that you don't. Don't you think trans people are able to speak for themselves? That they need a male ally to speak for them? And correct them when they're wrong? A little bit offensive that, doncha think?

So far no one has any answer to that

Says the OP who is yet to give a coherent answer to any question asked of him so far in this thread.

Poor bernard 😩

Though im not sure that we got a straight answer regarding men following daughters into the ladies loo

Apologies if ive missed it, but it is just a yes/no

Wait a minute, is the OP male?
So he is male and has no experience of being a woman.
He is not trans so has no experience of being a transwoman.
He has no experience of being a woman and having male people in womens spaces, except when he was the male person.

What the h*ll is OP thinking he can come and berate women on something he has zero experience with and has never encountered or will have to be afraid to counter in his life?

The focus on toilets is annoying because it is not the one that is the worst but the easiest one to argue. So come on, OP, can a transwoman with penis be sentenced for rape to a womans prison and can other women be made to share a cell with them? Try answering a difficult one for a change. I dare you.

Or what huggy said

I think Debbie had surgery to be fair.

You do NOT need to use womens spaces to get a GRC. How many times do I need to say this. Are you really going to argue with me over GRC requirements??

Yes. I believe he intends to.

Would that be transplaining blue?

@Waitwhat23

It's interesting that despite 'the recent convincing defeat of gender critical ideology in the high court vs EHRC' that's there's nothing in the media about it. I just checked, using various different search words. Nothing. If it's such a big victory, then why it is not being lauded all over the place? It's not because trans voices are being silenced by the media - organisations are falling over themselves to be 'inclusive' (see the pronoun use in the reporting of sex crimes by transwomen for example).

Is it because trans activists know, perfectly well, that the majority of the population (most of whom aren't really aware of the discussion) consider toilets to be single sex and this would be a tipping point for many people? This is all being done by stealth so that when people realise what is happening and start to question it, a precedent has been set, 'it's always happened'.

What a great point, you can be sure the BBC, Guardian, etc, etc would have reported on it if there had been any positive spin for GC ideology here. So why did the many journalists at the hearing not report on it? I hear in GC circles that the "trans lobby" controls the media, but only Pinknews reporting on the absolute demolition of a core tenet of gender critical ideology in the high court... Weird! twitter.com/vicparsons_/status/1390583239291592706

@sanluca

Wait a minute, is the OP male? So he is male and has no experience of being a woman. He is not trans so has no experience of being a transwoman. He has no experience of being a woman and having male people in womens spaces, except when he was the male person.

What the h*ll is OP thinking he can come and berate women on something he has zero experience with and has never encountered or will have to be afraid to counter in his life?

The focus on toilets is annoying because it is not the one that is the worst but the easiest one to argue. So come on, OP, can a transwoman with penis be sentenced for rape to a womans prison and can other women be made to share a cell with them? Try answering a difficult one for a change. I dare you.

This is worth having here twice.

Mansplaining and transplaining. You must be a real asset at parties op.

Anovaneway

ool0n do you think there is ever a need to separate some spaces based on whether people have a vulva or a penis?

A phalloplasty and labioplasty clinic?

A good start OP. So someone who has a penis which needs some treatment should be treated in a separate space to someone who has a vulva which needs some treatment. Now keep going.

Apologies if ive missed it, but it is just a yes/no
Apparently it's just fine as long as their intentions are good. Don't worry, the OP can tell taps side of nose.

Not a single woman I know is GC, and I know of plenty of GC men and women who say they've lost all their friends because of their GC views.

You know not a single woman who is GC and yet you know plenty of GC women?

sanluca I know, the absolute male cheek of him.

A phalloplasty and labioplasty clinic?

You talk a lot about ‘most people’ but do you really think in open changing rooms most people want to get changed in front of strangers with opposite sexed bodies?

(I think trans women are women btw, I just recognise that as there are trans and non-trans women and men, we sometimes need to separate based on the sexed body).

A phalloplasty and labioplasty clinic?

Anywhere else?

[quote nauticant]In case people have only recently joined this thread, I'll repeat my post earlier that the OP has posted here to use this thread as material to push their position on twitter:

www.twitter.com/oolon/status/1390625065834778626[/quote]
The mind boggles as to why people come and make such fools of themselves in such a public way.

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

OP, why might some women prefer single sex toilets?

@jellyfrizz 😆 Tbh, I'm struggling to imagine that the OP has friends, GC or not!