GRA Reform, Legal Self Declaration, has no effect on access to spaces

[ool0n]

I'm wondering given the recent convincing defeat of gender critical ideology in the high court vs EHRC - if the Mumsnet gender critical people finally accept the fact that having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces?

People on the other side of the debate like myself have been explaining to GC people on Twitter for years that having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces so their objection to GRA reform is/was unfounded. I/we based this on -

1. English government legal analysis that stated having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces
2. Scottish government legal analysis ... ditto ...
3. The EA 2010 and GA 2004 text
4. The practical impossibility that a BC (Not an ID document) could be of any use in deciding access

now we have

1. Gender critical crowdfunded challenge to EHRC guidance that says having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces. Comprehensively lost, not even passed the very low bar to even be considered for a Judicial Review.

Given this is the case will gender critical people be reevaluating their assertion "Self ID", as in GRA Reform, must be opposed as it effects access to spaces? Trans people have always been able to "Self ID", in the colloquial sense, into men's and women's spaces. So making it easier for trans people to change their birth certificates only helps them, has no effect on GC feminists, and/or cisgender women and spaces.

(I also wonder if there'll be any introspection as to why an obviously incorrect interpretation of the law was able to become so prevalent in gender critical circles. Maybe listen to groups outside of GC circles a bit more?)

1. We have single sex spaces for good reasons.

Yes, most of those reasons were because women in the 19th century were mired in social concepts of women being weak and "hysterical" so when they started to enter the manufacturing workforce (which had been until then exclusively male) they were given special toilet facilities where they could have rest because they were "so obviously unable to work like men".

Museum of London
'Women's right to sit comfortably'
(extract)
"This was part of a broader pattern through the 19th and 20th centuries of inadequate female facilities. 'Respectable' women couldn't relieve themselves in 'retired streets' or alleys as men did, and the few toilets available in Victorian London were overwhelmingly built for men. Women who wished to travel into central London or even further for leisure and pleasure had to carefully plan where they could ‘stop off’, en route to their destination. Thus excursions outside the house were often based on visiting friends and family, where toilet facilities could be guaranteed.

Lack of access to toilets effectively tied women to their homes, putting them on a leash as long as their bladder capacity. Even when London's first public toilets were built for the 1851 Great Exhibition, the prevailing modesty of Victorian society assumed women would be too embarrassed to be seen entering them.

This was part of a broader Victorian pattern of dividing the city into a male-oriented 'public' sphere and a female-oriented 'private' one. Victorian society saw the ideal woman as being 'the angel of the house', naturally focused on being a good wife, mother, sister and daughter." (continues)
www.museumoflondon.org.uk/discover/womens-right-work-toilet-bathroom-victorian-london-wwi-factory-protest

“I'm confused why gender critical people would both criticise trans women for conforming to stereotypical views of what it means to be a woman. And criticise specific women like Alex Drummond, and Danielle early on in transition, who don't.”

The only person I’m criticising is Spoonrider who seems to think that all transwomen dress in a feminine way and seek to pass, which is a very out-of-date view.

@ool0n
Of course there is no recognisable sex after cremation, it destroys all DNA. What cremation doesn't do, however, is change someone's sex. It just makes it unobservable.

You talk of legal sex, but that is the issue really, legality should have nothing to do with sex. Sex is sex, it is binary and biological. It is not something that is abstract and can be changed just because someone wants it to.

@somethinginoffensive

1. Sex is immutable.

What characteristic of sex?

The characteristic that you can either produce eggs and give birth if these are fertilised or you can produce sperm.

This goes along with XX or XY chromosomes for the most part, that are replicated in every cell of your body.

Adding hormones at a level the opposite sex has would have some effects but not change your sex.

I think you knew that, really.

Right away the ability to produce eggs, and sperm, can and do change. Seems we have a different definition of "immutable". To me it's the dictionary defn of never changing through time. It seems to you it means something else entirely.

It’s really amazing that humans have managed to carry on having babies as sex is so mysterious and unknowable.

[quote Firevixen]@ool0n
Of course there is no recognisable sex after cremation, it destroys all DNA. What cremation doesn't do, however, is change someone's sex. It just makes it unobservable.

You talk of legal sex, but that is the issue really, legality should have nothing to do with sex. Sex is sex, it is binary and biological. It is not something that is abstract and can be changed just because someone wants it to.[/quote]
To talk about "someone's sex" when they are a pile of dust. That's so far outside my scientific materialist view of the world I can't process it. Seems the mystical immutable "sexed soul" is what you believe. There is no "me" when I'm a pile of dust in my opinion, let alone a "sex" assigned to those collection of atoms.

Right away the ability to produce eggs, and sperm, can and do change. Seems we have a different definition of "immutable". To me it's the dictionary defn of never changing through time. It seems to you it means something else entirely

You think that because I’ve gone through the menopause, I’m no longer a woman . Crikey, you are in a pickle and no mistake.

@ool0n

[quote Firevixen]
@ool0n
Of course there is no recognisable sex after cremation, it destroys all DNA. What cremation doesn't do, however, is change someone's sex. It just makes it unobservable.

You talk of legal sex, but that is the issue really, legality should have nothing to do with sex. Sex is sex, it is binary and biological. It is not something that is abstract and can be changed just because someone wants it to.

To talk about "someone's sex" when they are a pile of dust. That's so far outside my scientific materialist view of the world I can't process it. Seems the mystical immutable "sexed soul" is what you believe. There is no "me" when I'm a pile of dust in my opinion, let alone a "sex" assigned to those collection of atoms.[/quote]
The irony of this post! This is a “scientific materialist view”?

Yes, most of those reasons were because women in the 19th century were mired in social concepts of women being weak and "hysterical" so when they started to enter the manufacturing workforce (which had been until then exclusively male) they were given special toilet facilities where they could have rest because they were "so obviously unable to work like men".

Citation needed.

@ool0n Single documented example of someone who could produce eggs being able later to produce sperm, or vice versa?

Right away the ability to produce eggs, and sperm, can and do change You can't expect that to fly. can you?

How stupid do you think we are? Are you under the impression that females are entirely stupid, have no education and can't spot a ricidulously illogical statement at a distance?

Changes in abilty change frm the day we are born to the day we die. That's a natural part of the ageing process. Has bugger all to do wth the immutability of sex!

Seems the mystical immutable "sexed soul" is what you believe. There is no "me" when I'm a pile of dust in my opinion, let alone a "sex" assigned to those collection of atoms.
Makes a change of the mysterious gendered soul! I'll tell you what, I am willing to concede that after cremation you are just a pile of dust if you concede that before cremation you can't actually change sex.

Women's ability to produce eggs never changes - you produce them as you develop in the womb and once you are born you can neither produce more eggs nor start producing sperm.

I have to admit though, I haven't laughed that loudly for a while, so thanks for that

[quote ool0n]@Firevixen, this is definitely one of the bits of GC ideology I find most puzzling. It comes across as a slogan with no substance.

1. Sex is immutable.

What characteristic of sex? Legal sex isn't, the GRA is proof of that. Biological sex characteristics are not either, biology is very much mutable, I think at least we can agree on death and cremation there is no "immutable sex" left of either of us? We are very mutable. The only way I can see it makes any sense at all is if you view "sex" as some magical essence, a sexed eternal soul that can never change in some religious philosophy. That certainly doesn't fit with GC claims to be materialists.[/quote]
"What is Project Nettie ? Project Nettie is an online and regularly updated record of scientists, medics and those in related disciplines who, by signing their support for the Project Nettie statement (below), assert the material reality of biological sex and reject attempts to reframe it as a malleable social construct.

How can you be a part of Project Nettie? If you are a scientist, a medic or other healthcare professional, a science educator, or in a relevant field, you can sign the Project Nettie statement. Academic and professional signatories from other disciplines are welcome but will be listed separately. Please click here to access our signatory form. All signatories will be verified by the team. What is the aim of Project Nettie? The aim is to simply reassert the definition of biological sex. We do not extend our claims regarding biological sex beyond the scientific fact of biological sex. We do not feed into any political ideology. Why ‘Project Nettie’? Sex chromosomes were, in 1905, discovered by a female geneticist called Nettie Stevens. We hope, in some small way, to honour her achievements." (continues)
projectnettie.wordpress.com/

(Trying to quote Sophocles' post of 13:31 but not sure it's going to work...)

This, so much. If this was about finding a good way to move forward, with attention to everyone's dignity and safety, the discourse would be so different. It isn't. It's about humiliating the uppity women and making sure they know it.

We'll keep fighting.

[quote Itwasjustresting]“ when they started to enter the manufacturing workforce (which had been until then exclusively male)”

Woefully ahistorical.

www.britannica.com/topic/history-of-work-organization-648000/Women-in-the-workforce[/quote]
Yes - hence “the urinary leash”.

A woman pregnant with a baby girl will have within her the egg which will become her grandchild

Right away the ability to produce eggs, and sperm, can and do change.

"A female baby is born with all the eggs that she will ever have.This is estimated to be around two million, but by the time a girl reaches puberty, this number has decreased to about 400,000 eggs stored in her ovaries. From puberty to the menopause, only about 400–500 eggs will reach maturity, be released from the ovary (in a process called ovulation) and be capable of being fertilised in the fallopian tubes/uterine tube/oviduct of the female reproductive tract."
www.yourhormones.info/glands/ovaries/

@LostToucan I was about to come back and add a 'Urinary Leash' comment

@Sophoclesthefox

One option in reaction to yesterday’s decision would have been for transactivists and trans allies to try to build bridges and reassure women that honestly, we don’t have to worry, this isn’t something that will bring detriment to women, and explaining why you think that.

The other option would be to come and mock women for having the temerity to have concerns, and crow about how we just have to submit and there’s nothing we can do.

You chose the first, op. Isn’t that interesting?

I agree there is more than a bit of frustration in my post, years of trying to "build bridges" based on the fact that GRA reform can't affect access to spaces and failing can make you bitter ;)

I don't think you "have to submit", I think a problem has been created where there is none. The view "Self ID" will create an "avalanche" of "men pretending to be women" flooding spaces. I sincerely hope there would be some points of agreement here. Can you do a better job than me of framing it?

@Tibtom

A woman pregnant with a baby girl will have within her the egg which will become her grandchild

It's amazing, isn't it? I fucking love female bodies and biology. We're awesome!