Why do we need pronouns when we have names?

[Cannotgarden]

I am admittedly not up to date with the discussion about trans issues but my work has just asked us all to add pronouns onto our email signatures. I'm confused though because most names are gendered and my understanding was that people who wished to pretend to be a different sex, change their name anyway. So why would we need the pronouns?

I also find that personally I have no time to spend worrying about my own gender. I am just 'cannotgarden' so does this mean I can have no pronouns and demand that they use my name every time instead? I really wish they'd spend more effort sorting out the huge gender pay issue we have instead

This is discussed quite a lot on here, just don't do it. If it is pushed say something along the lines of "I haven't decided" or "I am not putting mine in support of those who are not ready to declare theirs - you wouldn't want them to feel uncomfortable would you?"

Overall though completely unnecessary, it is information that is generally useless to my life and email interactions with that person as I would never use a pronoun in that person's presence.

Use of pronouns is an early part of English language development. A pronoun replaces a noun or noun phrase. There are many different types of pronoun beyond the personal third person singular (she, her, he, him,it)
www.english-grammar-revolution.com/list-of-pronouns.html

Primary school resource:
Pronouns
"This KS2 English quiz will challenge you on pronouns. A pronoun is a word which replaces a noun. "Helen, Tom and Nadia decided to share Helen's, Tom's and Nadia's toys" sounds ridiculous! It's much better English to say, "Helen, Tom and Nadia decided to share their toys." The word 'their' is a pronoun, like 'he' and 'his', 'she' and 'her', 'you' and 'your', and 'I' and 'my'. Other pronouns include 'it'.

The majority of people naturally use pronouns when speaking. It certainly helps to use them in your writing as it shortens what might be a very lengthy sentence!"
www.educationquizzes.com/ks2/english/pronouns/

I'm confused though because most names are gendered and my understanding was that people who wished to pretend to be a different sex, change their name anyway.

But there are a number of people who identify as non-binary who it seems do nothing to transition other than demanding that people start using "they" (or possibly neopronouns) instead of he/she.

I have seen a fair few trans people say that they would rather we weren't doing this whole focus on announcing your pronouns.

I’ve been asked for places where it’s completely irrelevant (ie a mailing list).

Pronouns are more than just He/Him, She/Her and They/Them. There's over 100. Because we have become a society that goes against gender normality and all sorts, we use pronouns to help tell others how we wish to be referred to. To be honest, it is always best to stick with using They/Them unless you are sure of someones pronouns. Although it is a concern raised primarily by the trans community, it's not exclusively helping them. It helps many cisgender people who don't appear stereotypically as their gender stereotype and also helps when talking about people you haven't met or newly know. That's why it's been a rising discussion 🤍

Over 100? Why complicate matters so much?

Male - he/him
Female = she/her
Not sure or mixed group = they/them

Forgot to add - because I would normally use a person's name when referring to them when they are in earshot and if they aren't, it shouldn't matter to them anyway!

I’ve seen some rather extravagant ones on twitter and I’m not certain people are having a wee joke either.

Although it is a concern raised primarily by the trans community, it's not exclusively helping them. It helps many cisgender people who don't appear stereotypically as their gender stereotype

You know what would really help me? To have people not refer to me as 'cis'.

Pronouns are more than just He/Him, She/Her and They/Them. There's over 100

Are these the 100+ third person singular neo-pronouns?
Many who focus on third person singular appear unaware of the number and nature of pronouns.

'There are more than 100 pronouns. Here's the full list…'
www.thefreedictionary.com/List-of-pronouns.htm

[quote R0wantrees]Pronouns are more than just He/Him, She/Her and They/Them. There's over 100

Are these the 100+ third person singular neo-pronouns?
Many who focus on third person singular appear unaware of the number and nature of pronouns.

'There are more than 100 pronouns. Here's the full list…'
www.thefreedictionary.com/List-of-pronouns.htm[/quote]
I think we all know what pronouns are, @R0wantrees, but when people's workplaces start pressuring them to put 'their pronouns' in their email signature, they're not looking for a discussion of relative vs archaic pronouns, they're participating in a dangerous fiction that erodes biological reality and has a profound impact of women's rights and safety.

Gender ideology myth number 29.
Because some people insist that you use counter intuitive pronouns for them (eg "she/her" for a visibly male person, or they/them/theirs for a person with a visible sex apparent to everyone) that means everyone needs to state their pronouns at all times.

Pronoun badges for everyone, whether we want one or not even though pronouns are in the eye of the beholder.

helps many cisgender people who don't appear stereotypically as their gender stereotype

What about most people, who don't identify as either "cis" or trans?

In the 80s I was, on occasion, called 'son'.

It made not one jot of difference to me. my ego or my health. I was bothered not one jot by someone not noticing that I am female.

I dressed as many young women did back then - mens jeans, baggy shirt, shaved hair, DMs. I was called 'hen' mostly, and didn't find this objectionable due to my choice of 'male gendered' clothing, footwear and hairstyle.

Why is this such a Big Thing these days?

If I'm not in earshot (that would just be rude) people can call me whatever they like. which I'm sure they do I am not in the least bit bothered.

It also doesn't worry me if people get it wrong to my face, so no this doesn't help everyone.

In the 80s I was, on occasion, called 'son'

I misread this as 'In MY 80s, I was, on occasion, called 'son'.

Remember that misgendering is hate speech, so everyone putting pronouns in their bio protects us all from being hung in the gallows.

when people's workplaces start pressuring them to put 'their pronouns' in their email signature, they're not looking for a discussion of relative vs archaic pronouns, they're participating in a dangerous fiction that erodes biological reality and has a profound impact of women's rights and safety.

I completely agree.
However those who are often championing the requirement of pronoun declaration in work emails and introduction of 100+ neo pronouns often do not understand the function or scope.

This is a powerfully written article illustrating the impact on women : leelaventura05.wixsite.com/website/post/when-you-put-preferred-pronouns-in-your-email-signature

So why isn’t calling someone an ‘ugly old fucking birch’ hate speech then? That certainly ticks a few boxes.

Roll on the hanging, I'm not putting pronouns in my bio or my email address nor will I be forced to.

@toffeebutterpopcorn

So why isn’t calling someone an ‘ugly old fucking birch’ hate speech then? That certainly ticks a few boxes.

Amazing which group of people are left out of the hate crime legislation and which group of people it is perfectly acceptable to threaten with rape and death and violent assault, isn't it?

But pronouns.

If you work has asked and you have the option to forget or just not do it, fine.

If you are effectively being compelled, object on the grounds that many people who wish to or have transgendered do not do so at work (not 'outing' themselves might be one way of expressing their choice), and secondly that there are those who judge based on knowing whether someone is male or female.

Even though your colleagues may be kind, considerate and not biased, there may be suppliers, customers or others you deal with who are. After all, this country is led by someone who I think is a misogynist.

So if someone said ‘X (insert pronoun not of choice) is an ugly old fucking bitch’ then it’s a crime?

@toffeebutterpopcorn

So if someone said ‘X (insert pronoun not of choice) is an ugly old fucking bitch’ then it’s a crime?

Depends on the person it's aimed at, yes for some, no for others.

@toffeebutterpopcorn

So if someone said ‘X (insert pronoun not of choice) is an ugly old fucking bitch’ then it’s a crime?

Only for the oppressed specialkin.

You have to go all in with an Identity before you get to play opression top trumps.

You've got to be in it to win it!

But it's ok, you can make one up.