Why do we need pronouns when we have names?

[Cannotgarden]

I am admittedly not up to date with the discussion about trans issues but my work has just asked us all to add pronouns onto our email signatures. I'm confused though because most names are gendered and my understanding was that people who wished to pretend to be a different sex, change their name anyway. So why would we need the pronouns?

I also find that personally I have no time to spend worrying about my own gender. I am just 'cannotgarden' so does this mean I can have no pronouns and demand that they use my name every time instead? I really wish they'd spend more effort sorting out the huge gender pay issue we have instead

@yourhairiswinterfire

You are of course welcome not to, but in some places, and depending how you refuse, it can be a disciplinary/sackable offence.

For what reason though?

Boss: ''Everyone, you need to put your pronouns in your emails.''

Employee: ''No thank you, I'd rather not.''

Boss: ''You're sacked then.''

Sacked for what? What if the employee objecting was a trans person? Should they be fired?

The ones who have been sacked for refusing to use pronouns in the US was insubordination.

driveway I am concerned for anyone who would be distressed, inconvenienced or frankly baffled by a demand that they state 'their' pronouns.

I don't have any, as I don't believe in compelled speech, so I genuinely couldn't comply in good faith 🤷🏻‍♀️

@CorvusPurpureus

You just misgendered poor Jonny, driveway.

Haha. Rule lovers do seem to fall at the first hurdle.

@Butwasitherdriveway

So you admit that when you wrote this:

Except it isn't.

It's happened in America.

And it's happened here when there's a reshuffle or people reapplying for jobs or redundancies, given the current climate, that people have found themselves the one out.

You weren’t exactly being honest?

@CorvusPurpureus

driveway I am concerned for anyone who would be distressed, inconvenienced or frankly baffled by a demand that they state 'their' pronouns.

I don't have any, as I don't believe in compelled speech, so I genuinely couldn't comply in good faith 🤷🏻‍♀️

But distressed due to being trans isn't really equal to being baffled is it.

This is two separate arguments.

Do I believe people who are trans and genuinely affected by this should be forced into it? No

Do I think someone behind wide eyed and making their point that they don't believe in trans should be treated with the same compassion?

No.

It's interesting how people claim to be worried about these poor trans people forced into revealing their pronouns ....when they're not busy claiming it isn't really a thing.

[quote NotBadConsidering]@Butwasitherdriveway

So you admit that when you wrote this:

Except it isn't.

It's happened in America.

And it's happened here when there's a reshuffle or people reapplying for jobs or redundancies, given the current climate, that people have found themselves the one out.

You weren’t exactly being honest?[/quote]
Ok. I'm a liar and a fraud and don't match up to your exacting Mumsnet posting standards. My apologies.

The ones who have been sacked for refusing to use pronouns in the US was insubordination.

In an entirely separate scenario, because they were addressing another person in a manner that whilst factually correct, upset that person.

So nothing whatsoever with refusal to dictate to others how they, themselves, preferred to be addressed or for that matter to even have a preference to state.

Forgive me, but are you implying teachers, who in secondary school teach and interact with hundreds of children a day, could be sacked for getting pronouns wrong? How is that manageable considering non binary and neo pronouns are spreading through schools like wildfire? Schools have to treat pupils the same, so insisting on non sexed based pronouns for one means they're all entitled to it.

I also don't think American employment dismissals are anything to hold up to. Their employment laws and rights are so poor that you can be sacked for all sorts of spurious reasons.

@BuffyTheSlavishIdeologySlayer

Forgive me, but are you implying teachers, who in secondary school teach and interact with hundreds of children a day, could be sacked for getting pronouns wrong? How is that manageable considering non binary and neo pronouns are spreading through schools like wildfire? Schools have to treat pupils the same, so insisting on non sexed based pronouns for one means they're all entitled to it.

I also don't think American employment dismissals are anything to hold up to. Their employment laws and rights are so poor that you can be sacked for all sorts of spurious reasons.

It has happened in America. Several times. Google it!

In the UK, I'd certainly be in hot water if I refused to use a pronoun yeah.

@CorvusPurpureus

The ones who have been sacked for refusing to use pronouns in the US was insubordination.

In an entirely separate scenario, because they were addressing another person in a manner that whilst factually correct, upset that person.

So nothing whatsoever with refusal to dictate to others how they, themselves, preferred to be addressed or for that matter to even have a preference to state.

And you don't think it's a slippery slope?

The ones who have been sacked for refusing to use pronouns in the US was insubordination.

A far higher bar than not putting pronouns in an email.

OK, I said could instead of can.

Backtracking now.

Because I believe moving forward it could be.

Nope, the law will never make pronoun omissions in email a disciplinary in the UK.

I also don’t understand why someone would think a battle raging through a lifetime to compel people to say something they’re not comfortable saying would be considered a good thing.

Quite. But I think I do understand. You make the understandable mistake of thinking that everyone is reasonable and empathetic.

@Scepticaltank

The ones who have been sacked for refusing to use pronouns in the US was insubordination.

A far higher bar than not putting pronouns in an email.

OK, I said could instead of can.

Backtracking now.

Because I believe moving forward it could be.

Nope, the law will never make pronoun omissions in email a disciplinary in the UK.

I'm not backtracking.

I hadn't realised I was on newsnight and didn't phrase it well. I'd forgotten about Mumsnets judge and jury on these boards where you can say whatever you like, as long as you fit the narrative and agenda.

There's a difference between repeatedly refusing to use a pronoun and doing so due to either not knowing or not remembering.

I also don't think American employment dismissals are anything to hold up to. Their employment laws and rights are so poor that you can be sacked for all sorts of spurious reasons.

This. Are we thinking it should be a race to the bottom? We have much better legal employment protections here.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I also don’t understand why someone would think a battle raging through a lifetime to compel people to say something they’re not comfortable saying would be considered a good thing.

Quite. But I think I do understand. You make the understandable mistake of thinking that everyone is reasonable and empathetic.

And what empathy was shown in the example above when PP said she didn't give a monkeys about someone else's pronouns that are important to them?

Or does this go back to only being empathetic to certain people?

Ok. I'm a liar and a fraud and don't match up to your exacting Mumsnet posting standards. My apologies

Apology accepted, but please be aware that “not making shit up” in discussions is a pretty good life rule to follow, not just “exacting Mumsnet posting standards”.

So just to clarify, you think teachers would be sacked due to being unable to use pronouns at such high volumes? That seems reasonable to you?

If this was the case you'd have no teachers left.

@AssassinatedBeauty

There's a difference between repeatedly refusing to use a pronoun and doing so due to either not knowing or not remembering.

But people who object to them being used on emails are presumably the same role refusing to refer to Jonny in accounts as they?

@BuffyTheSlavishIdeologySlayer

So just to clarify, you think teachers would be sacked due to being unable to use pronouns at such high volumes? That seems reasonable to you?

If this was the case you'd have no teachers left.

Jesus Christ.

It. Has. happened. Many times. In . America.

I don't like the unable to argument. It's really not that difficult.

We are not required by the standards to use a pronoun unless it is formally agreed. Therefore, it is not in high volumes as MN would have you believe.

And what empathy was shown in the example above when PP said she didn't give a monkeys about someone else's pronouns that are important to them?

You had so little empathy and gave so few monkeys you got the pronouns wrong!

@NotBadConsidering

Ok. I'm a liar and a fraud and don't match up to your exacting Mumsnet posting standards. My apologies

Apology accepted, but please be aware that “not making shit up” in discussions is a pretty good life rule to follow, not just “exacting Mumsnet posting standards”.

Cool.

@NotBadConsidering

And what empathy was shown in the example above when PP said she didn't give a monkeys about someone else's pronouns that are important to them?

You had so little empathy and gave so few monkeys you got the pronouns wrong!

Where ?

My boss talks an absolute load of bollocks a lot of the time. Can I tell him that?

You can. You can politely give feedback if inaccurate information caused a work issue. 360 appraisals exist for that exact purpose.