Why do we need pronouns when we have names?

[Cannotgarden]

I am admittedly not up to date with the discussion about trans issues but my work has just asked us all to add pronouns onto our email signatures. I'm confused though because most names are gendered and my understanding was that people who wished to pretend to be a different sex, change their name anyway. So why would we need the pronouns?

I also find that personally I have no time to spend worrying about my own gender. I am just 'cannotgarden' so does this mean I can have no pronouns and demand that they use my name every time instead? I really wish they'd spend more effort sorting out the huge gender pay issue we have instead

Specialkin. That sounds so cute! Like a Moomin character. Awwwww

@ASugarr

Pronouns are more than just He/Him, She/Her and They/Them. There's over 100. Because we have become a society that goes against gender normality and all sorts, we use pronouns to help tell others how we wish to be referred to. To be honest, it is always best to stick with using They/Them unless you are sure of someones pronouns. Although it is a concern raised primarily by the trans community, it's not exclusively helping them. It helps many cisgender people who don't appear stereotypically as their gender stereotype and also helps when talking about people you haven't met or newly know. That's why it's been a rising discussion 🤍

I used to always use "they" on internet forums, @ASugarr, as an automatic habit, as it was the internet and you never knew what sex someone was at the other end of the conversation. I did this for years.

Then I was roundly, viciously and publicly denounced as a terf for using "they" when it turned out the other person was a transwoman, and I was "obviously" and "maliciously" using "they" instead of "she" because I didn't see them as a woman. You can't win.

I haven't bothered since.

I hadn't thought of non binary, I didn't realise what that actually was, I assumed if was people who flip flopped or is that gender fluid?

But surely even non binary people it'd be easier just to say "hi I'm Steve" and just not be offended if people say him/he? just like I'm not offended when people call me 'sir' on email or mistake me for a man if I'm out and about? Are these people who obsessively dress children in pink or blue so they never get called by the wrong gender despite all babies looking identical?

Sadly we are being compelled so I'll need to perhaps pretend I don't know what an email signature is and quickly delete the whole lot.

Refer them to Yogyakarta principle #6:

yogyakartaprinciples.org/principle-6/

'Everyone, regardless of sexual orientation or gender identity, is entitled to the enjoyment of privacy without arbitrary or unlawful interference, including with regard to their family, home or correspondence as well as to protection from unlawful attacks on their honour and reputation. The right to privacy ordinarily includes the choice to disclose or not to disclose information relating to one’s sexual orientation or gender identity, as well as decisions and choices regarding both one’s own body and consensual sexual and other relations with others.'

• checkwoke.

PumpkinSpiceWoman does not know why anybody has pronouns when everyone also has names. PumpkinSpiceWoman's friends agree. Names forever. Never pronouns. JPSWHO (Just PumpkinSpiceWoman's Humble Opinion).

A strike on using pronouns. To be clear let’s just never use them where they are not needed or misleading

Since my ‘gender’ is never relevant (since it’s a load of old tosh and a bunch of sexist stereotypes anyway) but there are occasions where my sex may well be... I won’t be pandering to this either.

The only person who needs to announce their pronouns is the queen and anyone else who talks about themselves in third person.
On a sidenote, I seem to have developed an annoying habit of calling myself Mummy instead of me. Do all new mums do this or am I being insufferable (ds not able to tell me yet!)

Since pronouns aren't something you can actually possess then all this my pronouns are is just balderdash and I won't be obliging anybody by taking part in this grammatical and linguistic crime.

Haha @GoingThruTheMotions - yes mummy is being insufferable. Don't worry he'll tell you Mummy by the time he's about 12.

@Cannotgarden

I am admittedly not up to date with the discussion about trans issues but my work has just asked us all to add pronouns onto our email signatures. I'm confused though because most names are gendered and my understanding was that people who wished to pretend to be a different sex, change their name anyway. So why would we need the pronouns?

I also find that personally I have no time to spend worrying about my own gender. I am just 'cannotgarden' so does this mean I can have no pronouns and demand that they use my name every time instead? I really wish they'd spend more effort sorting out the huge gender pay issue we have instead

It's just a way of showing support for a small number of vulnerable people - including the ones who aren't out.

If you are OK with the pronouns your colleagues use when talking about you, just pop them in your email signature - job done - you're fine, and maybe a vulnerable person feels a little better.

Nah, I'm not a foot soldier in your ideological war.

Yours sincerely,

Mummy.

What I don't get is that you only use third person pronouns when talking about someone, not in their company, so I could declare my pronouns, but I'm not really bothered how you talk about me in my absence, if you address me as she/her in my presence I'll be offended!

Nah, colleagues can use whatever pronouns they wish when talking about me, I will not submit to enforced speech or thought nor will I compel others to do so.

If you exercise a little ingenuity you can be polite and avoid the most outré pronouns at the same time. It can sound a little clunky, but "Bill is eating Bill's lunch," isn't a hateful thing to say. "Bill's at lunch," is easier. "Bill's work isn't completed," solves the problem of "Bill hasn't finished (possessive pronoun I'm trying not to use) work."

The passive voice is your friend here. 😉

As for being asked for your own pronouns at work, if you put "undecided" nobody is going to feel able to hassle you without fear of being called a bigot. It's that or reach for the ze, zer, zers list and change it every week or so, with a copy everyone in alert that your preferred pronouns have changed (again) and a regular trawl to see who hasn't kept up in their emails and a template to complain to HR about it.

No company is going to endure that for long, especially if others follow suit!

It's just a way of showing support for a small number of vulnerable people - including the ones who aren't out.

Don't you think it's kind of rubbing it in that everyone's merrily "popping" their pronouns in their email signature while they have to keep theirs quiet? I mean, I don't really have any truck with the whole pronouns on signatures thing, or gender identity ideology in general, but even I can see that it might be a bit shit for closeted trans people that people who aren't trans are virtue signalling with pronouns while you can't use the ones you feel apply to you.

If you are OK with the pronouns your colleagues use when talking about you, just pop them in your email signature - job done - you're fine, and maybe a vulnerable person feels a little better.

For women this just draws attention to the fact you are female. And it is well known women are taken less seriously. Working in a very male dominated environment the last thing I want to do is make it clear I am a woman. Don't do it.

As well as the fact companies aren't allowed to ask identifying personal information they don't need and they don't need to know your gender identity. It is a GDPR nightmare in waiting because you can ask them to remove all reference to personal information they hold and that inclused any copies of emails with your signature with your non essential personal information. Don't understand why companies aren't more reluctant to ask their staff to do this.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

It's just a way of showing support for a small number of vulnerable people - including the ones who aren't out.

Don't you think it's kind of rubbing it in that everyone's merrily "popping" their pronouns in their email signature while they have to keep theirs quiet? I mean, I don't really have any truck with the whole pronouns on signatures thing, or gender identity ideology in general, but even I can see that it might be a bit shit for closeted trans people that people who aren't trans are virtue signalling with pronouns while you can't use the ones you feel apply to you.

Doesn't work that way. Trans people who aren't out are usually not out because they are scared. Working in an environment where everyone states their pronouns means they can feel a little less scared. And if there's pushback, they know who to avoid and whether they might be safer working somewhere else.

So funny watching you all falling over yourselves trying to find any possible way to avoid being inclusive or supportive of trans people.

@sanluca

If you are OK with the pronouns your colleagues use when talking about you, just pop them in your email signature - job done - you're fine, and maybe a vulnerable person feels a little better.

For women this just draws attention to the fact you are female. And it is well known women are taken less seriously. Working in a very male dominated environment the last thing I want to do is make it clear I am a woman. Don't do it.

As well as the fact companies aren't allowed to ask identifying personal information they don't need and they don't need to know your gender identity. It is a GDPR nightmare in waiting because you can ask them to remove all reference to personal information they hold and that inclused any copies of emails with your signature with your non essential personal information. Don't understand why companies aren't more reluctant to ask their staff to do this.

OP says:

"I'm confused though because most names are gendered and my understanding was that people who wished to pretend to be a different sex, change their name anyway. So why would we need the pronouns?"

But you say,

"For women this just draws attention to the fact you are female."

The 2 of you could have an interesting discussion about this.

For women this just draws attention to the fact you are female. And it is well known women are taken less seriously. Working in a very male dominated environment the last thing I want to do is make it clear I am a woman. Don't do it.

Exactly this. Not happening, thanks.

I'm not putting pronouns in emails because it's pointless. It's impossible to misgender someone when you're talking to them, unless someone takes issue with being referred to as 'you'.

Shizuku, I work in a very international environment where it is not often clear what sex someone is. We have a lot of women who do the actual work, but the experts and management are male. I am the only female expert in my area. The amount of sexism I encounter is staggering. I would never draw unneeded attention to my sex and why should my company force me to do something sexist?

With 'something sexist' I mean open myself up for being even more a target for sexism.

I am not gc but understand some concerns. I actually went to some training on lgbtq+ issues recently and they said no one should be forced to pit this in their signature or contact details. Mainly because it can force people to out themselves as trans or be difficult for people thinking about their gender.

So you could say this...

Maybe they should just refer to everyone with the same identical one? Then no one could possibly be offended...