Why do we need pronouns when we have names?

[Cannotgarden]

I am admittedly not up to date with the discussion about trans issues but my work has just asked us all to add pronouns onto our email signatures. I'm confused though because most names are gendered and my understanding was that people who wished to pretend to be a different sex, change their name anyway. So why would we need the pronouns?

I also find that personally I have no time to spend worrying about my own gender. I am just 'cannotgarden' so does this mean I can have no pronouns and demand that they use my name every time instead? I really wish they'd spend more effort sorting out the huge gender pay issue we have instead

I think there will be significant push back, especially if/when men are negatively impacted by this. Atm it seems that many people are reporting that the men in their organisation simply ignore requests for compulsory pronouns and don't face any consequences.

I think so.

It's probably psychologically healthier to be optimistic about freedom of belief and expression prevailing than fantasising about people being punished by their employers for wrongthink.

@CorvusPurpureus

I can't see how that could realistically work, driveway.

But it would certainly make for an interesting subsequent tribunal if people who elected not to disclose their, sorry, , pronouns, were disciplined. Sounds very like forced outing.

It would and already has in the us.

The person lost.

Here's the thing.

Post covid, let's imagine there are redundancies in an office.

In the same way someone I know who was one of the best workers was somehow rated the lowest due to their union activities, which they can't be sacked for, do you not think someone who point blank refuses to follow company policy, because that is what you are doing, might be seen as being difficult? Rather than brave and courageous?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I think so.

It's probably psychologically healthier to be optimistic about freedom of belief and expression prevailing than fantasising about people being punished by their employers for wrongthink.

But freedom of expression isn't (usually ) OK in the workplace.

My boss talks an absolute load of bollocks a lot of the time. Can I tell him that?

@sanluca

However, a really large percentage of women have names that will be recognised as female by most of the people they interact with through work. What would be your advice to them regarding that?

Why draw attention to your sex when you know you will be treated differently? Makes no sense.

Also, how does that work? When discussing team activities you have to go and check everyone's pronouns before talking about something relating to them? Have an excel so you can check quickly? Do you just put in everyone's pronouns, even when they are sex based, or do you only do it for the people who have pronouns different than their sex? Isn't that then othering? Doesn't it just draw attention to those people who are transgender as they are the people you have to go look up in your excel? Would there be a risk for transgender people, like for women, that this whole pronoun thing just leads to unfavourable bias against them?

Maybe I'm naive as I don't work in a massive place, but just learn them....?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

especially in years to come.

Or alternatively in years to come there'll be some rowing back on this nonsense. We'll see.

Agreed. It is nonsensical to suggest that someone could lose their job for refusing to add words to an email. I don’t believe this has ever happened, or will ever happen, particularly in the USA where the First Amendment “freedom of speech” also includes the right not to say something.

I also don’t understand why someone would think a battle raging through a lifetime to compel people to say something they’re not comfortable saying would be considered a good thing.

You are of course welcome not to, but in some places, and depending how you refuse, it can be a disciplinary/sackable offence.

For what reason though?

Boss: ''Everyone, you need to put your pronouns in your emails.''

Employee: ''No thank you, I'd rather not.''

Boss: ''You're sacked then.''

Sacked for what? What if the employee objecting was a trans person? Should they be fired?

It really isn't important enough an issue to be a battle that rages on. It's a peripheral idea that will come and go.

@Butwasitherdriveway

I am not trans. I use she / her on my emails because i am she / her. It's a fact.

What's the problem?

It doesn’t matter if you’re comfortable with it. You should respect the fact others aren’t for reasons that include:

Not wanting to reveal their gender identity to the world
Not wanting to raise the risk of sex discrimination
Not believing that pronouns can be anything other than sex-based
Not wanting to compel others to refer to them in a certain way.

These reasons should be respected.

Do you have a reference for the person who lost their job for not doing this in a work email?

Have you got a link to the case in the US, driveway? It certainly sounds interesting.

@NotBadConsidering

Why don't you address me directly then instead of pretending I'm not here?

I think the battle for both voices to be heard is a good thing, yes. That OK with you ?

You're talking nonsense on the amendment. America has a massive cancel culture! Also, if you take a quick Google of it, I am not making these cases up.

www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/10/02/us/virginia-teacher-says-wrongfully-fired-student-wrong-pronouns-trnd/index.html

There are several along these lines. I appreciate this isn't in relation to email but one would be naive to believe it won't be a slippery slope.

@NotBadConsidering

Well irt doesn't matter if you're not comfortable , you need to respect those who are.

See how this battle can go on all day? That was my point.

BOTH voices need to be heard and a compromise reached. Not 'im not doing it'.

I have googled it. I can’t find any case of someone being dismissed for not putting their pronouns in their email. Do you have a link?

@NotBadConsidering

I have googled it. I can’t find any case of someone being dismissed for not putting their pronouns in their email. Do you have a link?

I appreciate your patronising of me because you don't agree with me (given your original post pretending I'm not here)

But I have very clearly said more than once the cases were in schools refusing to use pronouns.

I am not silly and aware this isn't an email, but one would be naive to believe it isn't a slippery slope, otherwise how do we legislate for children's pronouns being used and not adults ?

That link is for refusing to refer to someone by their preferred pronouns, not for refusing to declare their own pronouns in an email as you claimed. Do you have another link?

@Butwasitherdriveway

I am not trans. I use she / her on my emails because i am she / her. It's a fact.

What's the problem?

It looks unprofessional and it's unnecessary.

I received an email recently from someone who is obviously "non-binary" 🙄 because 'Jonny' specified they/them pronouns. Honestly - who cares?!
I want to buy a top from the company that Jonny works for; I do not want or need to share a bed with Jonny.
Should I wish to compliment or complain to Jonny's company about Jonny, I am sure my use of he/she/they/whatever will be the last thing on Jonny's mind and I doubt the company will care overmuch either.

That isn't anything to do with someone refusing to put their own pronouns in an email.

Because if you believe that they have pronouns, then presumably you also believe it's up to them to decide whether to share them or not.

@Tanith

Jonny cares.

What is unprofessional, and a bit ridiculous on your behalf, is the fact you think his gender tells you anything about his bed activities.

You just misgendered poor Jonny, driveway.

@Butwasitherdriveway

You said:

Butwasitherdriveway

Ereshkigalangcleg
I'm not putting pronouns in emails because it's pointless. It's impossible to misgender someone when you're talking to them, unless someone takes issue with being referred to as 'you'.

Indeed. I won't be putting pronouns in my email, no matter what scolding and guilt tripping people do over it.
You are of course welcome not to, but in some places, and depending how you refuse, it can be a disciplinary/sackable offence.

I’m not patronising you. I am asking you to back up the claim that you made that someone has been sacked for failing to put their pronouns in their emails.

@CorvusPurpureus

That isn't anything to do with someone refusing to put their own pronouns in an email.

Because if you believe that they have pronouns, then presumably you also believe it's up to them to decide whether to share them or not.

Yes.

I've never actually said I think people should he forced to do it.

But the posters here are not concerned for people who don't want to reveal it. they are concerned for themselves and their own views. As usual. And I just think it's naive to assume that you will always be able to do as you please at work and hope 'but I'm right ' will help.

@Butwasitherdriveway

That case is the exact opposite of what is being discussed here though.

We are saying we don't "have pronouns" You have said you will be dismissed for not "having pronouns".

The one case you have managed to google is the exact opposite, its someone refusing to refer to someone the way they wanted to be.

I suggest people trying to force people to "have pronouns" are the pronoun harassers here.

[quote NotBadConsidering]@Butwasitherdriveway

You said:

Butwasitherdriveway

Ereshkigalangcleg
I'm not putting pronouns in emails because it's pointless. It's impossible to misgender someone when you're talking to them, unless someone takes issue with being referred to as 'you'.

Indeed. I won't be putting pronouns in my email, no matter what scolding and guilt tripping people do over it.
You are of course welcome not to, but in some places, and depending how you refuse, it can be a disciplinary/sackable offence.

I’m not patronising you. I am asking you to back up the claim that you made that someone has been sacked for failing to put their pronouns in their emails.[/quote]
OK, I said could instead of can. Because I believe moving forward it could be. The ball is rolling.

That OK with you?