Why do we need pronouns when we have names?

[Cannotgarden]

I am admittedly not up to date with the discussion about trans issues but my work has just asked us all to add pronouns onto our email signatures. I'm confused though because most names are gendered and my understanding was that people who wished to pretend to be a different sex, change their name anyway. So why would we need the pronouns?

I also find that personally I have no time to spend worrying about my own gender. I am just 'cannotgarden' so does this mean I can have no pronouns and demand that they use my name every time instead? I really wish they'd spend more effort sorting out the huge gender pay issue we have instead

@Scepticaltank

You tell us. Go back through the thread. Who have you made values judgements about?

You are a strange poster.

I'm so prejudiced you cant tell me who!

Here you go. This is you setting out who you are prejudiced against.

I have no issue with people who can't. I have an issue with people who won't. Posters who actively said I won't becuase I don't believe in it.

xyz was equating the feelings of a child to her own beliefs about lying. I have an issue with that from a member of school staff.

You are prejudiced against people that believe different things to you. It's quite a serious prejudice. You want them to be disciplined and or dismissed. You are hoping that people will be unable to work unless they have the beliefs you approve of, or will pretend they do.

@Scepticaltank

Here you go. This is you setting out who you are prejudiced against.

I have no issue with people who can't. I have an issue with people who won't. Posters who actively said I won't becuase I don't believe in it.

xyz was equating the feelings of a child to her own beliefs about lying. I have an issue with that from a member of school staff.

You are prejudiced against people that believe different things to you. It's quite a serious prejudice. You want them to be disciplined and or dismissed. You are hoping that people will be unable to work unless they have the beliefs you approve of, or will pretend they do.

I have no words really.

I have never once said they shouldn't be able to work.

That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read on MN.

I said I have an issue with people who won't.

But given I am not a manager, my opinion doesn't really matter!

I'm sorry it took you so long to find a quote to back up your ridiculous views but I've never said anything of the sort.

See how ridiculous that becomes?

As pp have said, it becomes instinctive and you find more elegant ways around it in speech. This is what many of us do on MN.

Excellent.

But I'm sure you are not comparing posting on MN to dealing with a living breathing vulnerable child in your space.

Whether I am or not is pretty irrelevant to how I formulate speech, isn't it? Odd post.

A poster said:
Indeed. I won't be putting pronouns in my email, no matter what scolding and guilt tripping people do over it.

You said
You are of course welcome not to, but in some places, and depending how you refuse, it can be a disciplinary/sackable offence

When challenged on this implausible assertion you expressed this desire.

OK, I said could instead of can. Because I believe moving forward it could be. The ball is rolling.

That OK with you?

You can of course now tell us this is not want you want, and you are just giving us all a warning to stay in line? Because the ball is rolling?

A poster said:
Indeed. I won't be putting pronouns in my email, no matter what scolding and guilt tripping people do over it.

Me

@Scepticaltank

A poster said: Indeed. I won't be putting pronouns in my email, no matter what scolding and guilt tripping people do over it.

You said
You are of course welcome not to, but in some places, and depending how you refuse, it can be a disciplinary/sackable offence

When challenged on this implausible assertion you expressed this desire.

OK, I said could instead of can. Because I believe moving forward it could be. The ball is rolling.

That OK with you?

You can of course now tell us this is not want you want, and you are just giving us all a warning to stay in line? Because the ball is rolling?

Not a warning. People will do what they want as is their right.

It wasn't a desire. It was the fact I originally said will and was corrected.

I'm not warning anyone. But I think it's beyond naive to assume you can behave however you like with no repercussions.

Hop over to the thread where a woman did challenge it, and the many posters talking about the fact they know there will be repercussions in many places.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Whether I am or not is pretty irrelevant to how I formulate speech, isn't it? Odd post.

No.

Because you're trying to tell me how easy it should be for me in my job based on your ability to write on bloody MN. And you call me self involved.

I'm not warning anyone. But I think it's beyond naive to assume you can behave however you like with no repercussions.

Yes, there are people trying to impose their will on employers. Trying to insist their is only one belief permitted. There isn't a lot of leverage in reality. It has stalled at thought policing. Which is fundamentally undemocratic and inhuman and won't get much further.

But driveway - you've been busily telling other PPs that it's easy to remember chosen pronouns. & you, personally, champion the use of those chosen pronouns.

So y'know, you crack on with that, do.

Meanwhile those of us with different scruples will structure our language to avoid pronouns where they are contentious.

@CorvusPurpureus

But driveway - you've been busily telling other PPs that it's easy to remember chosen pronouns. & you, personally, champion the use of those chosen pronouns.

So y'know, you crack on with that, do.

Meanwhile those of us with different scruples will structure our language to avoid pronouns where they are contentious.

Yes I have. What's your point?

In talking to Eresh about this idea that we should just use the name in conversation constantly even when faced with a vulnerable child (who btw, knows exactly what you're doing ) and even though it is clumsy because we just want to be right.

@Scepticaltank

I'm not warning anyone. But I think it's beyond naive to assume you can behave however you like with no repercussions.

Yes, there are people trying to impose their will on employers. Trying to insist their is only one belief permitted. There isn't a lot of leverage in reality. It has stalled at thought policing. Which is fundamentally undemocratic and inhuman and won't get much further.

Because you think employees think well of people who challenge them?

Whether they're right or wrong isn't my point here.

A la PP upthread who wants to complain about a survey . Do you think directly, or indirectly, that people who challenge management are seen well?

You say this won't get much further. It probably won't. But it isn't going away either.

In talking to Eresh about this idea that we should just use the name in conversation constantly even when faced with a vulnerable child (who btw, knows exactly what you're doing ) and even though it is clumsy because we just want to be right.

& that's going to have to be the compromise.

But - hurrah! - poor Penelope isn't even in the room at this point. Penelope is reflecting that maybe telling Mrs X to fuck off was y'know a bit extra. In the inclusion room.

So Penelope won't be impacted at all by my pronoun free conversation with whoever else needs to know about Penelope's behaviour.

In the subsequent conversation with Penelope, Penelope will be addressed by name, not pronoun.

You say this won't get much further. It probably won't. But it isn't going away either.

Things go away all the time. All sorts of absolute certainties have fallen by the wayside because they are not that significant in reality.

Challenge is essential in business, and a senior leader that attempts to impose their will on people isn't demonstrating leadership. The same rule applies to external ideas like pronouns in emails, imposition of something people don't value or perceive as irrelevant is impossible as we have free will.

In talking to Eresh about this idea that we should just use the name in conversation

There's no "we", you can do as you see fit and so will I.

A la PP upthread who wants to complain about a survey . Do you think directly, or indirectly, that people who challenge management are seen well?

Maybe not always, but it's often important to stand up for what you believe to be morally right.

you're trying to tell me how easy it should be for me in my job

No, I'm responding to your example that you specifically asked me to comment on

My prediction for the pronoun thing is that it'll run for another year or so.

& then companies will start noticing that increasing numbers of staff are politely refusing/loudly objecting/taking the piss with emojis etc etc.

& then a realisation will arrive that it's keeping HR way too busy & is pissing off just as many people as are 'championing' it, whilst the majority of the workforce don't much care either way but when anonymously surveyed, think it's complete bobbins & would rather go back to moaning about parking spaces & unfair allocation of TOIL.

& then it'll be axed, with some diplomatic language about the company respecting everyone's right to a private life.

It doesn't even need that many people to make a huge fuss about it. Just for management to quietly figure out that it's deeply unpopular & taking up a disproportionate amount of HR person hours.

Just caught up on something like 9 pages, fwiw I barely remember names, including people I work with every day, and then half of the males go by nicknames, so I need to remember them to. Remembering pronouns would be a tall order.

I agree, it will eat itself. See the neopronouns thread.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

A la PP upthread who wants to complain about a survey . Do you think directly, or indirectly, that people who challenge management are seen well?

Maybe not always, but it's often important to stand up for what you believe to be morally right.

Okay.

That's fine.

So I believe we should use pronouns. My colleague thinks we shouldn't. Now what?

Fresh, my other point was that you said my example was irrelevant. It wasn't. I asked you about how we cope in a classroom and you then referred to MN and then said it was irrelevant to ask you about a classroom.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I agree, it will eat itself. See the neopronouns thread.

I genuinely don't know what a neo pronoun is.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

In talking to Eresh about this idea that we should just use the name in conversation

There's no "we", you can do as you see fit and so will I.

There lies the problem.