Why do we need pronouns when we have names?

[Cannotgarden]

I am admittedly not up to date with the discussion about trans issues but my work has just asked us all to add pronouns onto our email signatures. I'm confused though because most names are gendered and my understanding was that people who wished to pretend to be a different sex, change their name anyway. So why would we need the pronouns?

I also find that personally I have no time to spend worrying about my own gender. I am just 'cannotgarden' so does this mean I can have no pronouns and demand that they use my name every time instead? I really wish they'd spend more effort sorting out the huge gender pay issue we have instead

@Scepticaltank

My boss talks an absolute load of bollocks a lot of the time. Can I tell him that?

You can. You can politely give feedback if inaccurate information caused a work issue. 360 appraisals exist for that exact purpose.

And that wouldn't affect my rep in the company in any way?

Union reps are always seen well by management?

But people who object to them being used on emails are presumably the same role refusing to refer to Jonny in accounts as they?

So now you are making prejudiced assumptions about people?

But distressed due to being trans isn't really equal to being baffled is it.

This is two separate arguments.

Do I believe people who are trans and genuinely affected by this should be forced into it? No

Do I think someone behind wide eyed and making their point that they don't believe in trans should be treated with the same compassion?

No.

It's interesting how people claim to be worried about these poor trans people forced into revealing their pronouns ....when they're not busy claiming it isn't really a thing

You seem to be assuming that everyone enthusiastically championing pronoun declarations is trans, which is...odd.

& there's nothing 'wide eyed' about it - I've given quite a bit of thought to the fact that I don't, ultimately, believe that I have any right to dictate how other people use language to refer to me.

I am also aware that people exist who believe themselves to have a fluid gender identity, or are still working it out, & would be distressed by a peremptory demand to make a public statement about it in the workplace.

The issue - from both ends - is the compulsion.

@Butwasitherdriveway

Here. You called Jonny “he” but Jonny is “they”.

Butwasitherdriveway

Tanith

Jonny cares.

What is unprofessional, and a bit ridiculous on your behalf, is the fact you think his gender tells you anything about his bed activities.

Are you going to apologise to Jonny?

No, it goes back to not compelling people to prop up an ideology they don't believe in. That's oppressive. Look at the gay cake case. I imagine if a case like this went to court, that legal precedent might be cited. Human Rights Act.

“The bakers could not refuse to supply their goods to Mr Lee because he was a gay man or supported gay marriage, but that is quite different from obliging them to supply a cake iced with a message with which they profoundly disagreed.”

And as Peter Tatchell, who I rarely agree with said, it also means that gay bakers can't be compelled to ice a cake by a religious person with an anti-gay message.

https://amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/10/uk-supreme-court-backs-bakery-that-refused-to-make-gay-wedding-cake

@CorvusPurpureus

But distressed due to being trans isn't really equal to being baffled is it.

This is two separate arguments.

Do I believe people who are trans and genuinely affected by this should be forced into it? No

Do I think someone behind wide eyed and making their point that they don't believe in trans should be treated with the same compassion?

No.

It's interesting how people claim to be worried about these poor trans people forced into revealing their pronouns ....when they're not busy claiming it isn't really a thing

You seem to be assuming that everyone enthusiastically championing pronoun declarations is trans, which is...odd.

& there's nothing 'wide eyed' about it - I've given quite a bit of thought to the fact that I don't, ultimately, believe that I have any right to dictate how other people use language to refer to me.

I am also aware that people exist who believe themselves to have a fluid gender identity, or are still working it out, & would be distressed by a peremptory demand to make a public statement about it in the workplace.

The issue - from both ends - is the compulsion.

That would be a strange thing to assume given that I absolutely champion it and I'm not trans.

"But people who object to them being used on emails are presumably the same role refusing to refer to Jonny in accounts as they?"

I don't object to people putting their pronouns on their emails. I don't want to be compelled to put mine. I would use the pronouns indicated for those that give them, or use their name, or use "they" if I'm not sure of the specified ones.

And that wouldn't affect my rep in the company in any way?

Lets turn that around shall we? Would you be comfortable for things to go wrong rather than sensitively and intelligently dealing with them? Its a normal work skill.

@AssassinatedBeauty

"But people who object to them being used on emails are presumably the same role refusing to refer to Jonny in accounts as they?"

I don't object to people putting their pronouns on their emails. I don't want to be compelled to put mine. I would use the pronouns indicated for those that give them, or use their name, or use "they" if I'm not sure of the specified ones.

Don't disagree.

@Scepticaltank

And that wouldn't affect my rep in the company in any way?

Lets turn that around shall we? Would you be comfortable for things to go wrong rather than sensitively and intelligently dealing with them? Its a normal work skill.

You haven't answered the question though.

Do you think routinely challenging your boss means they think you as brave and full of integrity?

I don't know about formally agreed. But I will tell you certain kids like to be known as a name different to the register. Some of these are formally agreed, some not. What I can tell you is it causes all kinds of unnecessary problems for people covering, or who have more than one class. Certain parents will complain that a nickname completely different to the name the child is registered is used, without realising that as there are 19 Harriets in the school, who all have a variety of pet names used, Hatty, Hats, Harriet, Hattie, so the task is impossible for the teacher.
It's not unreasonable to apply the same logic to non reality based pronouns. People are going to get them wrong.
And as stated previously, we have much better employment laws than the US. Things you can get sacked for there aren't applicable here.

@BuffyTheSlavishIdeologySlayer

I don't know about formally agreed. But I will tell you certain kids like to be known as a name different to the register. Some of these are formally agreed, some not. What I can tell you is it causes all kinds of unnecessary problems for people covering, or who have more than one class. Certain parents will complain that a nickname completely different to the name the child is registered is used, without realising that as there are 19 Harriets in the school, who all have a variety of pet names used, Hatty, Hats, Harriet, Hattie, so the task is impossible for the teacher. It's not unreasonable to apply the same logic to non reality based pronouns. People are going to get them wrong. And as stated previously, we have much better employment laws than the US. Things you can get sacked for there aren't applicable here.

Not sure i see the issue.

If I'm covering a class i don't know if expect a seating plan. If there isn't one, I'm going on what is on the register.

It's the teachers responsibility to highlight any name changes to make someone covering aware.

There is also a vast difference between the likes of my colleague who has known a pupil since they were small accidentally misgendering at times to someone actively refusing to.

Formally agreed as in, sometimes kids come to work and tell staff they want to be called whatever.

We are under no obligation to do so unless formally informed.

i really wish they'd spend more effort sorting out the huge gender pay issue we have instead

It will sort out the gender pay gap though. If more men identify as women, their higher pay will become women’s and hey presto! No gender pay gap.

Unless when changing your pronouns you also change your salary to the gender you identify with...I’d be on board with that....

I think you're misunderstanding the premise, driveway - no one is trying to stop Jonny putting their pronouns in their email, although you've illustrated that not everyone will respect that.

The argument is that people should not be compelled to do so if they don't want to - or compelled to 'out' themselves by giving a reason.

Is it that compulsion you are 'championing'?

@CorvusPurpureus

I think you're misunderstanding the premise, driveway - no one is trying to stop Jonny putting their pronouns in their email, although you've illustrated that not everyone will respect that.

The argument is that people should not be compelled to do so if they don't want to - or compelled to 'out' themselves by giving a reason.

Is it that compulsion you are 'championing'?

No.

I don't agree with the compulsion

What I disagree with is people trying to claim that not doing it because they don't agree with or believe in trans is in any way equatable or acceptable in a workplace.

@Butwasitherdriveway

Don't disagree is your reply to AssassinatedBeauty’s post that they will not be compelled to put pronouns in their email. But earlier you said:

It is of course everyone's choice. But you are naive to foot stamp and think that all employees forever will be fine about it, especially in years to come

How do you reconcile this? It reads to me that you don’t want to be compelled either but everyone needs to get on and do it or there’ll be trouble. Do you agree with people being forced to put pronouns in their emails, or not, and is it because of support for trans people or out of fear of the consequences?

You have demonstrated the problem yourself: you were told Jonny’s pronouns and just two minutes later you got them wrong. Imagine if this was your workplace. Do you think you should be in trouble for such an error?

You don't have to agree with their reasons. Because their reasons are not your business.

'I want you to add your pronouns'
'I'm not comfortable doing that'
'I demand that you give me a reason for your being uncomfortable with it that I find acceptable!'
'I'm not comfortable discussing it, either'
'Okay, you're fired'

----> TRIBUNAL

I'm not sure you are understanding the dilemma here.
I am saying, this is unworkable in practice.
You're talking about a nice cosy situation where a name is agreed upon and changed with one pupil. Every member of staff gets notified. Job done.
Except now imagine that it's a large school, that child has 10+ teachers. Each of their non binary peers, let's assume low for argument's sake, say 10 percent have non sex based pronouns. Plus potential name changes. Are you telling me you don't see a problem for the mental load of the person having to remember all this? Remember that pronouns are instinctual unlike names, so much more scope to get it wrong.

[quote NotBadConsidering]@Butwasitherdriveway

Don't disagree is your reply to AssassinatedBeauty’s post that they will not be compelled to put pronouns in their email. But earlier you said:

It is of course everyone's choice. But you are naive to foot stamp and think that all employees forever will be fine about it, especially in years to come

How do you reconcile this? It reads to me that you don’t want to be compelled either but everyone needs to get on and do it or there’ll be trouble. Do you agree with people being forced to put pronouns in their emails, or not, and is it because of support for trans people or out of fear of the consequences?

You have demonstrated the problem yourself: you were told Jonny’s pronouns and just two minutes later you got them wrong. Imagine if this was your workplace. Do you think you should be in trouble for such an error?[/quote]
Yes, you've made that point, except you still haven't explained where I got Jonny's pronouns wrong. I used them/they, which is what the post was. Where as my mistake?

Since you seem to be very interested in my posts you will have seen that I've said several times I don't think people should be forced to do it , and , this will fry your brain, this is because of trans people who aren't comfortable with that. But Im saying that isn't equatable to women who just don't want to because, and I think it's naive to believe that that sort of attitude won't have some kind of consequences at some point even indirect.

See, because I live in the real world, not in black and white MN when an immediate response to anything is 'Ohhhhh so you think this". It isn't a black and white issue.

Either it's compulsory or it's not. If it's not, then employers have no business asking people why they have chosen not to put pronouns in their email signature,

@BuffyTheSlavishIdeologySlayer

I'm not sure you are understanding the dilemma here. I am saying, this is unworkable in practice. You're talking about a nice cosy situation where a name is agreed upon and changed with one pupil. Every member of staff gets notified. Job done. Except now imagine that it's a large school, that child has 10+ teachers. Each of their non binary peers, let's assume low for argument's sake, say 10 percent have non sex based pronouns. Plus potential name changes. Are you telling me you don't see a problem for the mental load of the person having to remember all this? Remember that pronouns are instinctual unlike names, so much more scope to get it wrong.

I work in a school.

I can confidently say I've never worried about the 'mental load', no.

Pronouns aren't instinctual unless you are stubborn about it. You learn to accept the person as they sit before you.

I work in s school.
Touche.

Your post at 14.30 on page 4. You wrote:

Jonny cares.

What is unprofessional, and a bit ridiculous on your behalf, is the fact you think his gender tells you anything about his bed activities.