Why do we need pronouns when we have names?

[Cannotgarden]

I am admittedly not up to date with the discussion about trans issues but my work has just asked us all to add pronouns onto our email signatures. I'm confused though because most names are gendered and my understanding was that people who wished to pretend to be a different sex, change their name anyway. So why would we need the pronouns?

I also find that personally I have no time to spend worrying about my own gender. I am just 'cannotgarden' so does this mean I can have no pronouns and demand that they use my name every time instead? I really wish they'd spend more effort sorting out the huge gender pay issue we have instead

@RedDogsBeg

Since pronouns aren't something you can actually possess then all this my pronouns are is just balderdash and I won't be obliging anybody by taking part in this grammatical and linguistic crime.

Champ post. Badass badger award for you 🏆

🦡🌈🤍

I dread the day this comes because I'm far too literal. Couldn't give a fig what pronouns people use for me but if I get to choose I probably wouldn't want she/her/hers as I don't feel female and don't like being identified as female wherever possible.
I talked to my kids about it and said I was tempted to use she/his/their pronouns but was told that was transphobic as I'm obviously a woman because I'm their mum.

The whole thing makes me feel the same way as ticking a box for my sexuality or disability status. Its all complicated and something I prefer not to think about too deeply or to discuss at work as it's private.

@sanluca

Shizuku, I work in a very international environment where it is not often clear what sex someone is. We have a lot of women who do the actual work, but the experts and management are male. I am the only female expert in my area. The amount of sexism I encounter is staggering. I would never draw unneeded attention to my sex and why should my company force me to do something sexist?

What would be your advice to women in your position who have a name that is easily read as female? Perhaps a name like Anna or Maria that is a female name across multiple countries and in multiple languages.

Anne is actually a male name in Frisian.

I can also tell you a lot of names we take for granted in Western society as being very gendered, are not known to be gendered in for example Asian society. I would advise all women not to assume their name will be seen as female by all cultures they might work with and therefore not add pronouns. Most people will use 'they' or your name when talking about you in third person and everyone will use 'you' when actually emailing you.

I'm not putting pronouns in emails because it's pointless. It's impossible to misgender someone when you're talking to them, unless someone takes issue with being referred to as 'you'.

Indeed. I won't be putting pronouns in my email, no matter what scolding and guilt tripping people do over it.

Perhaps a name like Anna or Maria that is a female name across multiple countries and in multiple languages.

Is it? That all sounds a bit stereotyped and binary.

I will never but pronouns in my email signature. I've spent decades minimising my femaleness to succeed and I'm not about to draw attention to it now. No trans person is in danger in my workplace, or many at all if wager unless they perhaps work on a building site.

@Cannotgarden

I am admittedly not up to date with the discussion about trans issues but my work has just asked us all to add pronouns onto our email signatures. I'm confused though because most names are gendered and my understanding was that people who wished to pretend to be a different sex, change their name anyway. So why would we need the pronouns?

I also find that personally I have no time to spend worrying about my own gender. I am just 'cannotgarden' so does this mean I can have no pronouns and demand that they use my name every time instead? I really wish they'd spend more effort sorting out the huge gender pay issue we have instead

I have a serious question.

Why do you, or we, call it the gender pay gap, when actually it is a sex pay gap?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I'm not putting pronouns in emails because it's pointless. It's impossible to misgender someone when you're talking to them, unless someone takes issue with being referred to as 'you'.

Indeed. I won't be putting pronouns in my email, no matter what scolding and guilt tripping people do over it.

You are of course welcome not to, but in some places, and depending how you refuse, it can be a disciplinary/sackable offence.

@sanluca

Anne is actually a male name in Frisian.

I can also tell you a lot of names we take for granted in Western society as being very gendered, are not known to be gendered in for example Asian society. I would advise all women not to assume their name will be seen as female by all cultures they might work with and therefore not add pronouns. Most people will use 'they' or your name when talking about you in third person and everyone will use 'you' when actually emailing you.

"Anne is actually a male name in Frisian."

I didn't know that - very interesting - thanks for the info.

However, a really large percentage of women have names that will be recognised as female by most of the people they interact with through work. What would be your advice to them regarding that?

I can't see how that could realistically work, driveway.

But it would certainly make for an interesting subsequent tribunal if people who elected not to disclose their, sorry, , pronouns, were disciplined. Sounds very like forced outing.

You are of course welcome not to, but in some places, and depending how you refuse, it can be a disciplinary/sackable offence.

Thankfully not in mine, but I would get around it somehow. There are generally ways.

"Why do you, or we, call it the gender pay gap, when actually it is a sex pay gap?"

The word "gender" is regularly used synonymously for "sex" in everyday language and also quite often in more formal contexts. See section 3 on this page at the OED:

www.oed.com/viewdictionaryentry/Entry/77468

You are of course welcome not to, but in some places, and depending how you refuse, it can be a disciplinary/sackable offence.

That's ridiculous scaremongering.

I would be astonished if someone could be summarily dismissed for refusing to put their pronouns in an email signature.

[quote R0wantrees]when people's workplaces start pressuring them to put 'their pronouns' in their email signature, they're not looking for a discussion of relative vs archaic pronouns, they're participating in a dangerous fiction that erodes biological reality and has a profound impact of women's rights and safety.

I completely agree.
However those who are often championing the requirement of pronoun declaration in work emails and introduction of 100+ neo pronouns often do not understand the function or scope.

This is a powerfully written article illustrating the impact on women : leelaventura05.wixsite.com/website/post/when-you-put-preferred-pronouns-in-your-email-signature[/quote]
Very powerful article; thanks for linking it. The "new neighbours" allegory in the messages below the article is very powerful.

Why do you, or we, call it the gender pay gap, when actually it is a sex pay gap?

We stopped using the word sex in employment communications decades ago as it was cue for puerile sniggering and men writing yes please in the box on forms.

The word sex has two meanings and the first one that comes to mind for people is sexual activity not male and female.

If we had set the gender pay gap as the sex pay gap half the readers would think we were talking about the different pay rates for male and female prostitutes.

@AssassinatedBeauty

I would be astonished if someone could be summarily dismissed for refusing to put their pronouns in an email signature.

According to the recent neopronouns thread, it is now perfectly acceptable to have online neopronouns, that don’t need to be used in real life. The example given was 🐾. Yes really.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4214413-neopronouns-nounself-pronouns

So even though I think being in trouble for not putting them in an email is a complete lie, my defence would be that they were there all the time:

Kind Regards,
NotBadConsidering

You just can’t see them because my online neopronouns are two clicks of the space bar at the end of my name.

Kind Regards,
NotBadConsidering

................................ ⬆️ There they are.

@Scepticaltank

You are of course welcome not to, but in some places, and depending how you refuse, it can be a disciplinary/sackable offence.

That's ridiculous scaremongering.

Except it isn't.

It's happened in America.

And it's happened here when there's a reshuffle or people reapplying for jobs or redundancies, given the current climate, that people have found themselves the one out.

It is of course everyone's choice. But you are naive to foot stamp and think that all employees forever will be fine about it, especially in years to come.

Elegant solution!

@Scepticaltank

Why do you, or we, call it the gender pay gap, when actually it is a sex pay gap?

We stopped using the word sex in employment communications decades ago as it was cue for puerile sniggering and men writing yes please in the box on forms.

The word sex has two meanings and the first one that comes to mind for people is sexual activity not male and female.

If we had set the gender pay gap as the sex pay gap half the readers would think we were talking about the different pay rates for male and female prostitutes.

Wow. 🥺 Thanks for that. I hadnt even thought of it like that.

However, a really large percentage of women have names that will be recognised as female by most of the people they interact with through work. What would be your advice to them regarding that?

Why draw attention to your sex when you know you will be treated differently? Makes no sense.

Also, how does that work? When discussing team activities you have to go and check everyone's pronouns before talking about something relating to them? Have an excel so you can check quickly? Do you just put in everyone's pronouns, even when they are sex based, or do you only do it for the people who have pronouns different than their sex? Isn't that then othering? Doesn't it just draw attention to those people who are transgender as they are the people you have to go look up in your excel? Would there be a risk for transgender people, like for women, that this whole pronoun thing just leads to unfavourable bias against them?

especially in years to come.

Or alternatively in years to come there'll be some rowing back on this nonsense. We'll see.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

especially in years to come.

Or alternatively in years to come there'll be some rowing back on this nonsense. We'll see.

I don't think so.

I mean, we can and will disagree on the offensive use of the word nonsense but let's stay on track here.

Whatever my views, this battle will rage on for my lifetime. And so if should.

I am not trans. I use she / her on my emails because i am she / her. It's a fact.

What's the problem?