I had the most awful row with my teenagers yesterday

[JensonsAcolyte]

Both totally TWAW adherents.

DS is 18, his girlfriend is Non Binary and goes by a made up name (male Greek god). I am polite and go along with pronouns and use their chosen name.

For some reason Eddie Izzard came up at dinner time and I ‘misgendered’ them. DS really started laying into me about my bigotry so I played him the clip of Eddie saying Eddie has boy mode and girl mode and uses both sets of pronouns (I've tied myself in knots there as I don’t want to be deleted).

It came out in the conversation that DS believes, absolutely and 100%, that Izzard has changed sex. Actually changed sex. And that if DH came down for breakfast this morning and announced he was now a woman then DS would absolutely 100% believe that he had changed sex overnight.

DD was chiming in at this point and said that actually she would like to go by she/they as sometimes she identifies as ‘less female’. I was a bit irate by this point and I’m afraid I said that is navel gazing bollocks (oops).

Anyway it all got a bit shouty, and then DS dropped in that ‘some lesbians have genital preferences, and ultimately that’s transphobic but nobody’s trying to force anyone to have sex with anyone’ and I lost my shit a bit. I’d hoped this nonsense was confined to Twitter tbh and I hadn’t really seen it in the wild.

I told him he was a privileged, woke little shit. That lesbians my age have spent their entire lives having to justify their sexuality, being told they just haven’t met the right man, not to mention the sexual assaults and corrective rapes. And now are being told they are BIGOTS for not including penis. I was really angry. He then turned round and said the reason his girlfriend (and yes he calls them his girlfriend which is a whole nother eye roll) doesn’t like coming here is because I’m well known for being a Terf and she feels unsafe.

I’ve basically left it as saying I don’t adhere to your religion but that doesn’t make me hateful or phobic, we had a bit more of an argument where he tried to say it’s not a religion but actually I think I made that point quite clear. I don’t believe in God but that doesn’t mean I hate Christians, I don’t believe people can change sex but that doesn’t make me Transphobic.

I’ve woken up this morning and I just still feel sick about it all. He called me some dreadful things, bigot, hateful, dangerous. I said some things I regret, particularly about the arrant nonsense that is non binary, I’m usually a lot more measured than that to avoid offence but I was just so angry.

Is anyone else having this with their teens? I could do with a bit of solidarity, advice maybe or just a hand hold.

If you don't use preferred pronouns, don't complain if people aren't nice to or about you.

Uh huh.

Its funny that you identify as a "decent person"

You don't come across that way at all.

I have a problem with wonts.

What you going to do about it?

Go on...

I saw what they said to Sarah Paulson - all those "decent people" telling her she should die ugly whore, cunt.

@Helmetbymidnight

I have a problem with wonts.

What you going to do about it?

Go on...

I saw what they said to Sarah Paulson - all those "decent people" telling her she should die ugly whore, cunt.

Who's they?

Also 'what am I going to do about it?'

Interesting words from someone invested in women's rights. Is it only okay if women behave like this then?

@Helmetbymidnight

If you don't use preferred pronouns, don't complain if people aren't nice to or about you.

Uh huh.

Its funny that you identify as a "decent person"

You don't come across that way at all.

Couldn't care less what you think, il survive on without validation from someone who is transphobic cheers.

@Sophoclesthefox

bwith what? All you basically said is that I have a problem with people with disabilities not using pronouns , which I don't, and then seemed to claim that because you don't mind being misgendered no one else should. So I'm not sure what you're giving up on.

Eh. Nearly each of your posts in this thread is telling everyone they must use preferred pronouns...

So now you don't care?

Excellent. We can all get on using the language we chose. We don't have to validate you. My purpose is not to validate you. I'm glad you realise that now. That IS a far more mentally healthy state to be in as an individual - and is a hallmark of free speech in a democratic society -
well done, you.

I’m giving up on this debate, you doughnut. It’s like banging my head off the wall, and it’s going nowhere. You’re not even replaying the points I’ve made correctly.

You’re spoiling for a fight, and I’m not giving you one.

Happy Easter

Holy shit, I have small kids and I really hope all this woke shite is over before they are teens. I wouldn't even know about it without mumsnet and I almost hope it never enters our lives. Social suicide to be straight, I mean you can't make this stuff up??

@Sophoclesthefox

I’m giving up on this debate, you doughnut. It’s like banging my head off the wall, and it’s going nowhere. You’re not even replaying the points I’ve made correctly.

You’re spoiling for a fight, and I’m not giving you one.

Happy Easter

And you're not replaying mine right either.

Quite like a wee doughnut as it goes.

@Helmetbymidnight

Eh. Nearly each of your posts in this thread is telling everyone they must use preferred pronouns...

So now you don't care?

Excellent. We can all get on using the language we chose. We don't have to validate you. My purpose is not to validate you. I'm glad you realise that now. That IS a far more mentally healthy state to be in as an individual - and is a hallmark of free speech in a democratic society -
well done, you.

Incorrect.

I don't care what you think of me.

Sorry to disappoint.

So is misgendering always wrong? If a male rapist chooses to identify as a women to further damage his victim, is it right that his victim is forced to describe her rapist as " she" ?

@334bu

So is misgendering always wrong? If a male rapist chooses to identify as a women to further damage his victim, is it right that his victim is forced to describe her rapist as " she" ?

No, and no.

I have a transman niece. I love her dearly but refuse to use her preferred pronouns. In her presence I avoid them and we get on brilliantly.

She's still female and her pronouns reflect that.

But don't in life then complain if people aren't nice to or about you

I don’t expect anyone to be nice. I’d rather they were honest. If someone doesn’t like me, fine, I don’t control others feelings or choices.

@exLtEveDallas

But don't in life then complain if people aren't nice to or about you

I don’t expect anyone to be nice. I’d rather they were honest. If someone doesn’t like me, fine, I don’t control others feelings or choices.

Good for you. But most teens don't have that confidence.

As the parent of a 14 year old"non binary" person, which I believe to be nonsense....I'm just focussing on keeping a good relationship between us and not getting into arguments about it. Like so many other parents here I'm hoping all this is a phase teens will look back at with embarrassment.

ChiefBabySniffer, sorry, I cross-posted. I’m sorry you’re going through this.

R0wantrees, my colleague transitioned a few years before I joined the company. I doubt anyone would have been consulted about the ladies’ toilets, though.

I suppose I felt safe in the ladies’ toilets because there were separate cubicles. Also, the toilets were in a busy area of the office, with people working nearby.

I do appreciate that some women don’t feel safe in inclusive/unisex toilets and their views matter. When I was about 10, I once felt uncomfortable in unisex swimming pool changing rooms. The boy in the cubicle next to me was told by a friend that there was a girl next to him, and he began commenting on how girls were gross, and shoving objects under the cubicle and back out again.

I do appreciate that some women don’t feel safe in inclusive/unisex toilets and their views matter

I agree. Its also not just about women being and feeling safe, female single sex toilets are also intended to provide privacy and dignity for girls and women.

Rowan good of you to miss out the bit where she said she felt perfectly safe.

Its also not just about women being and feeling safe, female single sex toilets are also intended to provide privacy and dignity for girls and women.

@R0wantrees

Its also not just about women being and feeling safe, female single sex toilets are also intended to provide privacy and dignity for girls and women.

In what way would a TW colleague being ina. Toilet with cubicles prevent that?

Same way as any other man, surely?

@OnandOnforHoursandHours

Same way as any other man, surely?

Which is?

Should have said ‘male’ - need an edit function here.

I have found over the years that the majority of female people do not need to spend long thinking of circumstances when a male colleague in the women's toilets might seriously compromise women's dignity and/or privacy as well as them being/ feeling safe.