I had the most awful row with my teenagers yesterday

[JensonsAcolyte]

Both totally TWAW adherents.

DS is 18, his girlfriend is Non Binary and goes by a made up name (male Greek god). I am polite and go along with pronouns and use their chosen name.

For some reason Eddie Izzard came up at dinner time and I ‘misgendered’ them. DS really started laying into me about my bigotry so I played him the clip of Eddie saying Eddie has boy mode and girl mode and uses both sets of pronouns (I've tied myself in knots there as I don’t want to be deleted).

It came out in the conversation that DS believes, absolutely and 100%, that Izzard has changed sex. Actually changed sex. And that if DH came down for breakfast this morning and announced he was now a woman then DS would absolutely 100% believe that he had changed sex overnight.

DD was chiming in at this point and said that actually she would like to go by she/they as sometimes she identifies as ‘less female’. I was a bit irate by this point and I’m afraid I said that is navel gazing bollocks (oops).

Anyway it all got a bit shouty, and then DS dropped in that ‘some lesbians have genital preferences, and ultimately that’s transphobic but nobody’s trying to force anyone to have sex with anyone’ and I lost my shit a bit. I’d hoped this nonsense was confined to Twitter tbh and I hadn’t really seen it in the wild.

I told him he was a privileged, woke little shit. That lesbians my age have spent their entire lives having to justify their sexuality, being told they just haven’t met the right man, not to mention the sexual assaults and corrective rapes. And now are being told they are BIGOTS for not including penis. I was really angry. He then turned round and said the reason his girlfriend (and yes he calls them his girlfriend which is a whole nother eye roll) doesn’t like coming here is because I’m well known for being a Terf and she feels unsafe.

I’ve basically left it as saying I don’t adhere to your religion but that doesn’t make me hateful or phobic, we had a bit more of an argument where he tried to say it’s not a religion but actually I think I made that point quite clear. I don’t believe in God but that doesn’t mean I hate Christians, I don’t believe people can change sex but that doesn’t make me Transphobic.

I’ve woken up this morning and I just still feel sick about it all. He called me some dreadful things, bigot, hateful, dangerous. I said some things I regret, particularly about the arrant nonsense that is non binary, I’m usually a lot more measured than that to avoid offence but I was just so angry.

Is anyone else having this with their teens? I could do with a bit of solidarity, advice maybe or just a hand hold.

I don’t find using female pronouns for an obvious male (because, come on, 99% of them are) difficult - I just don’t do it.

I don’t care how a TW identifies, but I don’t have to indulge.

@exLtEveDallas

I don’t find using female pronouns for an obvious male (because, come on, 99% of them are) difficult - I just don’t do it.

I don’t care how a TW identifies, but I don’t have to indulge.

You don't have to, but as a decent human being, it's a good thing to do.

You’re not really very bothered about balancing competing rights and difficulties, are you, butwas?

Balancing people’s preferences for pronouns with the difficulties of some people of complying (non native English speakers, people with ASD)

Balancing the rights of Women to single sex toilet provision versus privacy and dignity for transwomen.

It all sounds very much one way the way you describe it. “Comply or fuck off!” Do you find that that gets people onside?

@exLtEveDallas

I don’t find using female pronouns for an obvious male (because, come on, 99% of them are) difficult - I just don’t do it.

I don’t care how a TW identifies, but I don’t have to indulge.

I don't mind using the name they have chosen but I'm not going to use female pronouns for someone obviously still presenting as a man and with a penis. You can't change sex. I wouldn't obviously deliberately use the wrong pronoun either.

WPUK
Women have a right to single-sex toilets
29th February 2020

(extract)
"WPUK is pleased to hear reports that the Government has asserted the statutory and ethical rights for women to have access to single-sex toilets.

The provision of single-sex public toilets has enabled women to participate fully in society. Before the existence of such provision, women were subject to a ‘urinary leash’ restricting our movement and access to all walks of public life.

Recent decisions to convert women’s toilets into mixed sex toilets are therefore a direct attack on our civil, political and economic rights.

We are glad that the Government has listened to the voices of women on this.

In a report in the Telegraph, a Government source said:

“It is clear that there needs to be a public service provision for everyone in our community and all people should be treated with dignity and respect.

“The Government is committed to maintaining safeguards that protect women.

“Proper provision of separate toilets for both men and for women, which has long been a regulatory requirement, should be retained and improved.”

The Government is backed in this assertion by Raymond Boyd Martin, managing director of the British Toilet Association:

“Where space and planning allows, the BTA would always support the concept of separate facilities for females and males.”

Despite this, too many local authorities, businesses, workplaces, and public authorities such as schools and the NHS are ignoring their statutory obligations towards meeting the needs of women. We call on them to ensure that they are abiding by the regulations and their duties towards all groups with protected characteristics." (continues with useful resources for women and girls who are denied single sex toilet provision )
womansplaceuk.org/2020/02/29/women-have-right-single-sex-toilets/

Consistently bringing up groups of people who can't as a reason to try and dismiss it is playing the card.

If they mention it, it is playing the disability card?

So they shouldn't mention it?
They should just shut up about it?
People with disabilities, please shut up. We don't like it.
Unbelievable.

Well, that's a ridiculous non argument that we wouldn't say about anything else. Imagine someone talking about the current drive for female safety and someone saying meh why should I get involved?

I'm glad you've brought up women's safety - because the drive for preferred pronouns is detrimental to women's rights and safety - so nope I won't get involved.

You miss the point. For people's pronouns to be respected, people need to erm, respect the pronouns. So that involves you

You miss the point. I don't give a shit about respecting people's preferred pronouns. Just because you've decided it's important - doesn't mean I have. We're not in 1984 quite yet.

@Sophoclesthefox

You’re not really very bothered about balancing competing rights and difficulties, are you, butwas?

Balancing people’s preferences for pronouns with the difficulties of some people of complying (non native English speakers, people with ASD)

Balancing the rights of Women to single sex toilet provision versus privacy and dignity for transwomen.

It all sounds very much one way the way you describe it. “Comply or fuck off!” Do you find that that gets people onside?

I have said several times I get the difficulties and don't have an issue with people who can't do it, can't not won't, so I don't really see what point you're trying to make there.

Re the toilet, I can see the balance, but I find the statement of the horror that women were not 'consulted' before a TW started laughable.

You don't have to, but as a decent human being, it's a good thing to do

No it’s not. You can indulge them all you want, knock your socks off, very happy for you. But I don’t need to and it’s not a good thing to do.

@exLtEveDallas

You don't have to, but as a decent human being, it's a good thing to do

No it’s not. You can indulge them all you want, knock your socks off, very happy for you. But I don’t need to and it’s not a good thing to do.

Indulge them

but as a decent human being, it's a good thing to do.

No it isn't.

And you, - telling people with disabilities to stop playing the disability card...- you think you're decent? You're having a laugh.

@Helmetbymidnight

but as a decent human being, it's a good thing to do.

No it isn't.

And you, - telling people with disabilities to stop playing the disability card...- you think you're decent? You're having a laugh.

Didn't say that.

I'm telling people without disabilities to stop using disability as a card.

Yes, indulge them. You know, I know, everyone knows the truth. But you feel the need to be nice. I don’t.

have said several times I get the difficulties and don't have an issue with people who can't do it, can't not won't, so I don't really see what point you're trying to make there

But you’d rather it wasn’t mentioned, because you refer to it as card playing. It’s not everyone, but it’s not no one either, and if the minority of people who want different pronouns than their sex based ones are important enough to merit all this conversation, then why aren’t the minority of people who won’t be able to cope with that worthy of similar consideration?

A Woman's Place is to be heard (Clara Greed, Bath, 1st November 2018)

"Professor Clara Greed is Professor of Inclusive Urban Planning at the University of the West of England, Bristol, and a specialist in toilet provision with particular emphasis upon women's needs."

This is a fantastic speech and well worth watching

previous thread:www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3427591-WPUK-Bath-fascinating-important-speech-by-Clara-Greed-Professor-of-Inclusive-Urban-Planning-specialist-in-toilet-provision-with-particular-emphasis-upon-womens-needs

@Sophoclesthefox

have said several times I get the difficulties and don't have an issue with people who can't do it, can't not won't, so I don't really see what point you're trying to make there

But you’d rather it wasn’t mentioned, because you refer to it as card playing. It’s not everyone, but it’s not no one either, and if the minority of people who want different pronouns than their sex based ones are important enough to merit all this conversation, then why aren’t the minority of people who won’t be able to cope with that worthy of similar consideration?

Jesus Christ.

How many times can I say it?

I think people who can't cope with it nor using it IS FINE.

Let's not pretend that the people playing the card are doing so with any concern for these people. It's just another gotcha, and thats what I object to.

@exLtEveDallas

Yes, indulge them. You know, I know, everyone knows the truth. But you feel the need to be nice. I don’t.

Good

But don't in life then complain if people aren't nice to or about you

Ah, so I should use preferred pronouns otherwise you'll call me transphobic?

If you think not calling a man 'she' is transphobic, you'll be crying about it for the rest of your life.
Why not just stop trying to control other people's language? People's identity has NOTHING to do with me. I don't have to validate anyone.

But don't in life then complain if people aren't nice to or about you

Like Sarah Paulson, do you mean? She wouldn't use preferred pronouns in her twitter bio - and got hundreds of rape and death threats.

Is that what you mean?

[quote R0wantrees]A Woman's Place is to be heard (Clara Greed, Bath, 1st November 2018)

"Professor Clara Greed is Professor of Inclusive Urban Planning at the University of the West of England, Bristol, and a specialist in toilet provision with particular emphasis upon women's needs."

This is a fantastic speech and well worth watching

previous thread:www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3427591-WPUK-Bath-fascinating-important-speech-by-Clara-Greed-Professor-of-Inclusive-Urban-Planning-specialist-in-toilet-provision-with-particular-emphasis-upon-womens-needs[/quote]
Professor Clara Greed reminded us that there is a UN statute recommending single-sex toilet provision for women, and especially girls, and it does apply to the UK.

@Helmetbymidnight

Ah, so I should use preferred pronouns otherwise you'll call me transphobic?

If you think not calling a man 'she' is transphobic, you'll be crying about it for the rest of your life.
Why not just stop trying to control other people's language? People's identity has NOTHING to do with me. I don't have to validate anyone.

I certainly don't cry about anything.

But it is transphobic. At least own it.

Right cool. So I can walk around calling everyone the c word, can I? I don't have to be nice and they can't control my language

@Helmetbymidnight

But don't in life then complain if people aren't nice to or about you

Like Sarah Paulson, do you mean? She wouldn't use preferred pronouns in her twitter bio - and got hundreds of rape and death threats.

Is that what you mean?

Yawn. Wondered when that was coming. The most extreme example as a way of shutting people up.

Simmer down. The issue is that you are going to battle for people who can’t cope with references to their sex, while scolding people for doing the same for people who can’t cope with that request. You’re demanding that a minority is catered to so as to,reduce their difficulties in life, while accusing people of playing a card for doing the same thing. Does that explain the pushback you’re getting?

I get “misgendered” quite a lot, as a tall athletic woman with short hair. It has exactly no impact on me.

@Sophoclesthefox

Simmer down. The issue is that you are going to battle for people who can’t cope with references to their sex, while scolding people for doing the same for people who can’t cope with that request. You’re demanding that a minority is catered to so as to,reduce their difficulties in life, while accusing people of playing a card for doing the same thing. Does that explain the pushback you’re getting?

I get “misgendered” quite a lot, as a tall athletic woman with short hair. It has exactly no impact on me.

No.

Because that group of people doesn't need defending because I never attacked them in the first place. I don't have a problem with cants. I have a problem with wonts.

That's great, but that's you. And it's not all about you.