I had the most awful row with my teenagers yesterday

[JensonsAcolyte]

Both totally TWAW adherents.

DS is 18, his girlfriend is Non Binary and goes by a made up name (male Greek god). I am polite and go along with pronouns and use their chosen name.

For some reason Eddie Izzard came up at dinner time and I ‘misgendered’ them. DS really started laying into me about my bigotry so I played him the clip of Eddie saying Eddie has boy mode and girl mode and uses both sets of pronouns (I've tied myself in knots there as I don’t want to be deleted).

It came out in the conversation that DS believes, absolutely and 100%, that Izzard has changed sex. Actually changed sex. And that if DH came down for breakfast this morning and announced he was now a woman then DS would absolutely 100% believe that he had changed sex overnight.

DD was chiming in at this point and said that actually she would like to go by she/they as sometimes she identifies as ‘less female’. I was a bit irate by this point and I’m afraid I said that is navel gazing bollocks (oops).

Anyway it all got a bit shouty, and then DS dropped in that ‘some lesbians have genital preferences, and ultimately that’s transphobic but nobody’s trying to force anyone to have sex with anyone’ and I lost my shit a bit. I’d hoped this nonsense was confined to Twitter tbh and I hadn’t really seen it in the wild.

I told him he was a privileged, woke little shit. That lesbians my age have spent their entire lives having to justify their sexuality, being told they just haven’t met the right man, not to mention the sexual assaults and corrective rapes. And now are being told they are BIGOTS for not including penis. I was really angry. He then turned round and said the reason his girlfriend (and yes he calls them his girlfriend which is a whole nother eye roll) doesn’t like coming here is because I’m well known for being a Terf and she feels unsafe.

I’ve basically left it as saying I don’t adhere to your religion but that doesn’t make me hateful or phobic, we had a bit more of an argument where he tried to say it’s not a religion but actually I think I made that point quite clear. I don’t believe in God but that doesn’t mean I hate Christians, I don’t believe people can change sex but that doesn’t make me Transphobic.

I’ve woken up this morning and I just still feel sick about it all. He called me some dreadful things, bigot, hateful, dangerous. I said some things I regret, particularly about the arrant nonsense that is non binary, I’m usually a lot more measured than that to avoid offence but I was just so angry.

Is anyone else having this with their teens? I could do with a bit of solidarity, advice maybe or just a hand hold.

Interestingly DH was involved in the conversation and didn’t get anywhere near the abuse I got. He said he would be ‘superstraight’ as he’d never want to sleep with a man, and in his opinion TWAM and the kids both said well that’s up to you and went back to shouting at me.

Can you bring this up as an example of their internalised biased. After all it isn’t women as a class, murdering trans people so why do they consider middle aged women to be the problem.

OP it’s awful to be so misunderstood and I really feel for you.

Hand hold op - I know how horrid it is when you have hard conversation like that with zero fact or logic deployed on their side.

I do remember when I was a teen and arguing with my parents - the more they argued, the more extreme my position became even if I didn’t fully believe it - it was more about the argument than what was being said. I wonder if it was part of my preparations for leaving home and asserting my independence.

I would go gently with DCs and if the conversation comes up you could carefully ask why DSs girlfriend would feel unsafe around you - what do they think you would do? Maybe it will highlight the ridiculousness of how you stating a biological fact makes someone feel unsafe?

I’m sure they’ll get there in the end though.

We’re starting a little bit of this with DD13. It’s so difficult to have conversations when teenagers are so hormonal. Hand hold.

It's the equivalent of the religion argument when I was growing up. Don't retaliate or stand your point it's not worth the angst. By the time they grow up properly they'll hopefully figure it all out.

I think this conversation will have landed some points. But important to be respectful of their position and especially their friends.

Handhold here. Dd is older but still of the same mindset as yours. We've had a few calmer discussions and had to agree to disagree. It's very hard. I'm told that female and make brains are different and it's nothing to do with genitals or chromosomes. The agreeing to disagree came when she couldn't argue the points I made, so she wanted out of the discussion.

It's horrible, isn't it.

My daughter's girlfriend has just come out as non binary and uses they pronouns. Prior to this my daughter and I have already had a number of heated discussions about the whole trans thing before. It's horrible. I get so irate I become inarticulate. They're lesbian's and they don't get it. I can only hope they grow out of it, which sounds so patronising but they're intelligent women studying at one of the top universities but just seem blind to the issues. I hope it's because they've just not been subjected to as much misogynistic crap as us oldies but I don't think it's that either.

I'm trying to bite my tongue but it's so difficult.

I did overhear my son telling a friend that transwomen playing rugby was not okay and he also told me about the Reddit stuff without knowing the whole background. So maybe all is not lost.

Actually scared about the world my kids are growing into. We had an 18 year old recently spend a week with us on work experience who told us her very loud extreme views (such as your son’s) constantly, it felt as though the idea was to start an argument. One thing that particularly grated on me was when she said most people were transgender and showed it by dressing non-binary clothing, eg a man wearing a skirt or a woman wearing trousers. Looking around the office, not one man was in a skirt and roughly half the women were in trousers. I wear trousers when I want to... I’m not transgender.

Handhold x

I think it's good that you made your sane opinion clear. I felt compelled to say in a class the other day that anyone can be whoever they want. It's not good. I think just like you.
Staff are FORCED to back them up. Its homophobic to say anything else and I'd literally be marched off site and never work again. I'm sorry for my pathetic self preservation and do feel bad.

But my point is that if the parents dont address it it will get worse. Young people are so impressionable. My daughter is on a STEM degree. Most of the (few) other girls on her degree and the other similiar courses present as men.
Her friend from high school who I was thrilled was taking the same career path as me (me and her are women) is now using it as a reason she's male. I cant explain how bad that makes me feel.

Sounds like you explained yourself clearly and factually, it must be so frustrating and upsetting OP.

Oh that's so hard . Such a tough conversation. I've had similar ones with DSD. They've not ended as badly as yours by the sounds of it, but we don't see eye to eye certainly. One area that I've managed to find common ground with her on is on agreeing that the world would be a better place if things were less strongly gendered. That boys and girls should be free to wear what they want, or play with what or who they want without anyone telling them that girls or boys shouldn't do that. Doesn't solve the disagreements about JKR or pronouns or "TWAW" but has provided a way to defuse a conversation or two. Interestingly, younger DD - despite has quite a few non binary friends - actually agrees with me on most of this, but tells me there are views she can't express in front of others as they are not acceptable.

Without getting into the subject, you admit that you got "shouty" and insulting about their opinions, and that you "told him he was a privileged, woke little shit". I simply can't imagine where these teenagers got their sense of critical engagement from. Could it be ... you?

Whether you like it or not, these young adults have a right to their own views and opinions, and they won't always be the same as yours. It actually doesn't matter who is right, or who passionately believes they are "right". It is about the ability to respect the views of others, and if you believe differently, to be able to discuss those views calmly and with intelligence. Calling your child a privileged, woke little shit doesn't really step up to that mark.

@Northernsoullover

To the pp who said you don't have the monopoly on being right.. sometimes you do. Its raining outside right now. That is a fact. The water that comes out of my tap is wet - fact. I am 5ft10. Fact. Men and women cannot change sex. Fact.

It's about an attitude to discussion.

I wouldn't worry about it op.

You both have strong views in the subject and you both defended your positions robustly.

And in the context of a loving home , that's absolutely fine.

In my experience of teens, they massively kick back and can say hurtful things during an argument, but if you generally have a good relationship then what you have said to them will filter through at a later date. And of course don't underestimate the fact that it's totally natural for your ds to listen more to his peers at the minute than to his parents, as he is in the process of becoming an individual separate to you, and this particular issue is one of those things that will achieve that. (Music and clothes did it in our day.)

And to you over the unfairness of your DH being able to say what he believes uncompromisingly without receiving the same flack. I get this from my teens all the time over other issues and I find it very hurtful, especially as I am the one that practically-speaking does much more for them.

And I hear you. It's really demoralising that, whatever issue is at stake nowadays, middle aged women/middle aged mothers, always seem to be in the wrong or the ones who apparently should be silenced.

They are testing their views out on you as a ‘safe place’ it’s classic teen behaviour and this is just the latest hot topic.

Philipa Perry’s book The book you wish your parents had read - is good on this stuff.

If pos I’d go with ‘I love that we can discuss the big issues and aren’t one of those families that just talks about the weather and watches tv. I might not always agree with you but I always learn something’ type approach

Agreed I would not want to be bringing a child into all this confusion. I am very grateful for all the women who call it out and are fighting the fight. There's a big bit of me that wants to shrug and say fuck it... If this is the world they want, then let them have it it.

Good point Kate! I think once they can get out to gigs, work, uni etc it might become less potent

I have a suggestion. No idea if this would work.

Tell your teens you too are now non binary or even trans.

Stop cleaning. Stop cooking. Stop washing.

Make sure they don't call you mum and every time they do say you're misgendering them.

Let's see how long before they crack.

Borrow my teen for a while, she agrees with you, as do I.

@FightingTheFoo

I have a suggestion. No idea if this would work.

Tell your teens you too are now non binary or even trans.

Stop cleaning. Stop cooking. Stop washing.

Make sure they don't call you mum and every time they do say you're misgendering them.

Let's see how long before they crack.

*Sorry, say they are misgendering you

I am all about debate. We’ve brought the kids up to always challenge everything, to be critical thinkers, no subject has been off limits.

But in the past two years it’s all fallen apart. We’ve never ever had a shouty row like last night and I’m not proud of calling him a privileged little shit, but he’d called me a hateful transphobic bigot so 🤷‍♀️

He goes to college in Brighton. So he’s absolutely surrounded by other middle class woke blue haired youngsters. I told him he’s in an echo chamber and the vast majority of people either don’t give this any thought or think it’s nonsense. He is privileged and woke and he was being a little shit.

God the youth of today and the world we live in! You are not wrong and one day when they have grown up they may feel embarrassed at their silly views. I can't stand all this identifying as a kettle bollocks

That's so shit OP, hand hold from me too.

I'm not raising a teen so have no advice. Hopefully it will die down and if the girlfriend doesn't feel 'safe' she won't come round so much to eat the meals you make and sit on your sofa to watch tv.

If you have a DD or DS has a grandmother that might be a way to get through to him but if he's lost in it to the extent that he doesn't see sport as a problem or rape crisis centres etc then I'd leave it for a while. None of it works in the real world and in time it will just a mechanism to rebel rather than an honestly held belief.

I just hope it doesn't last long.

I see my comment got deleted.

Every day I learn a bit more about what we can't say.

My sympathies OP.

I'm confident that in ten years time most of today's teenagers will cringe that they held these views.

I feel for the genuine transmen and women who just want to quietly go about their lives without their genuine condition (GD) being piggy backed on by attention seeking teens who are desperate to be different, as well as obviously the women and girls that will suffer if these shouty people get their way.