I had the most awful row with my teenagers yesterday

[JensonsAcolyte]

Both totally TWAW adherents.

DS is 18, his girlfriend is Non Binary and goes by a made up name (male Greek god). I am polite and go along with pronouns and use their chosen name.

For some reason Eddie Izzard came up at dinner time and I ‘misgendered’ them. DS really started laying into me about my bigotry so I played him the clip of Eddie saying Eddie has boy mode and girl mode and uses both sets of pronouns (I've tied myself in knots there as I don’t want to be deleted).

It came out in the conversation that DS believes, absolutely and 100%, that Izzard has changed sex. Actually changed sex. And that if DH came down for breakfast this morning and announced he was now a woman then DS would absolutely 100% believe that he had changed sex overnight.

DD was chiming in at this point and said that actually she would like to go by she/they as sometimes she identifies as ‘less female’. I was a bit irate by this point and I’m afraid I said that is navel gazing bollocks (oops).

Anyway it all got a bit shouty, and then DS dropped in that ‘some lesbians have genital preferences, and ultimately that’s transphobic but nobody’s trying to force anyone to have sex with anyone’ and I lost my shit a bit. I’d hoped this nonsense was confined to Twitter tbh and I hadn’t really seen it in the wild.

I told him he was a privileged, woke little shit. That lesbians my age have spent their entire lives having to justify their sexuality, being told they just haven’t met the right man, not to mention the sexual assaults and corrective rapes. And now are being told they are BIGOTS for not including penis. I was really angry. He then turned round and said the reason his girlfriend (and yes he calls them his girlfriend which is a whole nother eye roll) doesn’t like coming here is because I’m well known for being a Terf and she feels unsafe.

I’ve basically left it as saying I don’t adhere to your religion but that doesn’t make me hateful or phobic, we had a bit more of an argument where he tried to say it’s not a religion but actually I think I made that point quite clear. I don’t believe in God but that doesn’t mean I hate Christians, I don’t believe people can change sex but that doesn’t make me Transphobic.

I’ve woken up this morning and I just still feel sick about it all. He called me some dreadful things, bigot, hateful, dangerous. I said some things I regret, particularly about the arrant nonsense that is non binary, I’m usually a lot more measured than that to avoid offence but I was just so angry.

Is anyone else having this with their teens? I could do with a bit of solidarity, advice maybe or just a hand hold.

I can't believe it. You're doing it again!

You've attacked me for having concerns, you've accused other people of feigning concerns (and been apparently blindsided when she pointed out this was a child ahe's known since their birth) and now you're trying to shut up another parent of an autistic child!

Three in one thread!

I don't know when you are going to get it, but this is not a bloody card. These people you don't like and find so awful gestures around developed their concerns because they have real life experience of the conflicts.

They didn't go looking for a "card".

Now, for the love of small cute furry animals, come to terms with the fact that mumsnet has traditionally been a supportive enviroment for people whose families are affected by disability, and that therefore we are here. Speaking. Reflecting.

It's a card to you. Well, it's not to us. I do not, frankly, give a sweet wrapper about your wish to use preferred pronouns in your daily life. None of my business.

But why on earth do you think you have the right to tell other people that we're playing a "card" when we speak about the cognitive load on our own children?

Right, from now on, you can be referring to me and my child with per pronouns, as in the book Woman on the Edge of Time.

twitter.com/TheHeke/status/1378596634578280449?s=20

"Excuse me, it's Ma'am."

How anyone can support compelled speech after seeing this, I don't know.

That is sickening @Helmetbymidnight

My sympathy , I have a 17 dd and they are awfully woke . Luckily she seems to be 'cisgender' and for that I'm very very grateful !

@PotholeHellhole

I can't believe it. You're doing it again!

You've attacked me for having concerns, you've accused other people of feigning concerns (and been apparently blindsided when she pointed out this was a child ahe's known since their birth) and now you're trying to shut up another parent of an autistic child!

Three in one thread!

I don't know when you are going to get it, but this is not a bloody card. These people you don't like and find so awful gestures around developed their concerns because they have real life experience of the conflicts.

They didn't go looking for a "card".

Now, for the love of small cute furry animals, come to terms with the fact that mumsnet has traditionally been a supportive enviroment for people whose families are affected by disability, and that therefore we are here. Speaking. Reflecting.

It's a card to you. Well, it's not to us. I do not, frankly, give a sweet wrapper about your wish to use preferred pronouns in your daily life. None of my business.

But why on earth do you think you have the right to tell other people that we're playing a "card" when we speak about the cognitive load on our own children?

Right, from now on, you can be referring to me and my child with per pronouns, as in the book Woman on the Edge of Time.

None of the above is true.

@PotholeHellhole

no. This is card playing.

Perhaps you can explain clearly what you meant here?

Please don’t visit The Heke’s Twitter page. There’s an image on it that I think might be illegal.

[quote MrsGogolsGumbo]@Butwasittherdriveway

"You have well described the many threads of women fuming about trans women in their toilets. Well done."

No I was describing you and the others like you who scream I want and you're mean at women who are defending their law based rights which are being eroded. Clearly you are just being goady but ok [/quote]
No, I'm just pointing out the irony.

@Helmetbymidnight

no. This is card playing.

Perhaps you can explain clearly what you meant here?

The mentally ill, neurodivergent and especially the learning disabled are never considered in this farce of rapidly changing rules and terminology.

This.

yeah you dont have to visit any twitter page- just put 'excuse me its ma'am' in google to see a store clerk - possibly neuro-diverse being bullied for the terrible sin of misgendering.

I can’t understand what you’re getting at, butwasit- you seem to be arguing both sides here.

@Sophoclesthefox

I can’t understand what you’re getting at, butwasit- you seem to be arguing both sides here.

No.

My point is that the above comment is a card play.

Somehow pretending nobody can ever possibly use pronouns because what about people that struggle with it due to autism etc s emotive, manipulative nonsense.

Somehow pretending nobody can ever possibly use pronouns because what about people that struggle with it due to autism etc s emotive, manipulative nonsense.

No-one said "nobody can ever".

In fact, in my first post, I explicitly clarified that I found it easy. Before going on to talk about people like my child. I even specified that I was saying "some children on the autistic spectrum". Per has always found it difficult to switch pronouns when per mind is on something else, like the currect topic of conversation. This means that men get she'd if we were talking about a woman immediately before that, and women get he'd if we talking about men immediately before that.

Shall we go over how you reacted to a post when I clarified that some people could cope, but some people couldn't?

@PotholeHellhole

Somehow pretending nobody can ever possibly use pronouns because what about people that struggle with it due to autism etc s emotive, manipulative nonsense.

No-one said "nobody can ever".

In fact, in my first post, I explicitly clarified that I found it easy. Before going on to talk about people like my child. I even specified that I was saying "some children on the autistic spectrum". Per has always found it difficult to switch pronouns when per mind is on something else, like the currect topic of conversation. This means that men get she'd if we were talking about a woman immediately before that, and women get he'd if we talking about men immediately before that.

Shall we go over how you reacted to a post when I clarified that some people could cope, but some people couldn't?

Do as you like.

Your completely incoherent posts yesterday have kind of removed any validity you had.

No, no they did. They said that people with learning disabilities etc are never considered which is just total bollocks.

me I spent years and years fully on board with trans rights. That meant using neo-pronouns,theyfor a known person of known sex who preferred that, and training myself to say she for someone who had been born male.

I'm actually very good at it. But it does take some cognitive effort and it takes more for the average person. And for some children on the autistic spectrum, and for some people who speak English as an additional language, it is an almost impossible demand. I believe this week is Worldwide Autism Awareness Week, but presumably not people with that type of autism. Inclusive? Yeah right!

Butwasitherdriveway

Oh behave

As if we should eradicate trans just in case an autistic person gets it wrong.

I am sick fed up of autism being dragged into every argument. It's deceitful. Stop it.

For those new to this thread. I am autistic. So is my child, and per has different difficulties to me, which I am familiar with by now. Per difficulties caused me to rethink some of the things I had previously said about pronouns being easy.

For saying anything about this, I have been told to 'behave" and accused of being "deceitful" and wanting to eeradicate trans people.

@PotholeHellhole

me I spent years and years fully on board with trans rights. That meant using neo-pronouns,theyfor a known person of known sex who preferred that, and training myself to say she for someone who had been born male.

I'm actually very good at it. But it does take some cognitive effort and it takes more for the average person. And for some children on the autistic spectrum, and for some people who speak English as an additional language, it is an almost impossible demand. I believe this week is Worldwide Autism Awareness Week, but presumably not people with that type of autism. Inclusive? Yeah right!

Butwasitherdriveway

Oh behave

As if we should eradicate trans just in case an autistic person gets it wrong.

I am sick fed up of autism being dragged into every argument. It's deceitful. Stop it.

For those new to this thread. I am autistic. So is my child, and per has different difficulties to me, which I am familiar with by now. Per difficulties caused me to rethink some of the things I had previously said about pronouns being easy.

For saying anything about this, I have been told to 'behave" and accused of being "deceitful" and wanting to eeradicate trans people.

Yes, I stand by what I said.

You have created a total made up argument where you have somehow decided anyone has an issue with autistic people struggling with the pronouns. We don't. Nobody does.

But repeatedly posting about people with various conditions in an effort to demonise trans is odd behaviour

And as I said, which you also twisted, it's really deceitful that autism is used in every trans debate.

Ooh. Cross-post

In other news, autistic people who are deeply distressed sometimes find it difficult to explain things coherently while being serious distressed. This is characteristic of the condition.

Today I learned that ever being incoherent because of my disability means my opinions are invalidated forever!

Seriously. Do you read what you type before you enter it?

@PotholeHellhole

Ooh. Cross-post

In other news, autistic people who are deeply distressed sometimes find it difficult to explain things coherently while being serious distressed. This is characteristic of the condition.

Today I learned that ever being incoherent because of my disability means my opinions are invalidated forever!

Seriously. Do you read what you type before you enter it?

I'm not engaging with you anymore pothole. Not a chance.

Yes, pothole, that’s what I see, too.

I disagree that pointing out that some people manage cognitive load better than others is “card playing” or nonsense. For example, I can control my slight speech impediment very well speaking English, but when I speak my second language, it noticeably worsens becaus I’m less fluent and the cognitive load is greater. So I don’t find it a great leap to suppose that neuro-divergence can cause similar issues around using pronouns that you don’t think match what you’re seeing - the cognitive load would be greater than it would be for me.

I'm out of here guys.

I'm not subjecting myself to reading posts like this when there are inclusive, In the Spirit of MN parts to post on.

@PotholeHellhole

I'm out of here guys.

I'm not subjecting myself to reading posts like this when there are inclusive, In the Spirit of MN parts to post on.

You don't need to be.

I've already said I won't engage with you and then I can't be accused of these things and you can still partake.

Calling your child a privileged, woke little shit doesn't really step up to that mark.

Bollocks. People not telling their children when they are being privileged little shits has got us to this point.