I had the most awful row with my teenagers yesterday

[JensonsAcolyte]

Both totally TWAW adherents.

DS is 18, his girlfriend is Non Binary and goes by a made up name (male Greek god). I am polite and go along with pronouns and use their chosen name.

For some reason Eddie Izzard came up at dinner time and I ‘misgendered’ them. DS really started laying into me about my bigotry so I played him the clip of Eddie saying Eddie has boy mode and girl mode and uses both sets of pronouns (I've tied myself in knots there as I don’t want to be deleted).

It came out in the conversation that DS believes, absolutely and 100%, that Izzard has changed sex. Actually changed sex. And that if DH came down for breakfast this morning and announced he was now a woman then DS would absolutely 100% believe that he had changed sex overnight.

DD was chiming in at this point and said that actually she would like to go by she/they as sometimes she identifies as ‘less female’. I was a bit irate by this point and I’m afraid I said that is navel gazing bollocks (oops).

Anyway it all got a bit shouty, and then DS dropped in that ‘some lesbians have genital preferences, and ultimately that’s transphobic but nobody’s trying to force anyone to have sex with anyone’ and I lost my shit a bit. I’d hoped this nonsense was confined to Twitter tbh and I hadn’t really seen it in the wild.

I told him he was a privileged, woke little shit. That lesbians my age have spent their entire lives having to justify their sexuality, being told they just haven’t met the right man, not to mention the sexual assaults and corrective rapes. And now are being told they are BIGOTS for not including penis. I was really angry. He then turned round and said the reason his girlfriend (and yes he calls them his girlfriend which is a whole nother eye roll) doesn’t like coming here is because I’m well known for being a Terf and she feels unsafe.

I’ve basically left it as saying I don’t adhere to your religion but that doesn’t make me hateful or phobic, we had a bit more of an argument where he tried to say it’s not a religion but actually I think I made that point quite clear. I don’t believe in God but that doesn’t mean I hate Christians, I don’t believe people can change sex but that doesn’t make me Transphobic.

I’ve woken up this morning and I just still feel sick about it all. He called me some dreadful things, bigot, hateful, dangerous. I said some things I regret, particularly about the arrant nonsense that is non binary, I’m usually a lot more measured than that to avoid offence but I was just so angry.

Is anyone else having this with their teens? I could do with a bit of solidarity, advice maybe or just a hand hold.

I'm with you pothole. Discussing the problems some neuro-diverse people have with lying is not 'card-playing' That is a horrible, dismissive thing to say.

I’ve just picked your thread up and I wanted to say I’m sorry to see how many parents are having issues with their adult or soon to be adult children. My dd is 12, almost 13 so I’m on the start of this journey. I have fully briefed dh on the issues at hand and my concern for people, predominantly females in this climate. I’m trying to keep her on the gender critical side and told her about super straight. She’s sick to the back teeth of my banging on about it. But I hope it will continue to sink in.
I’m just adding this again as I think it’s hugely important and cannot be said enough. web.archive.org/web/20180315031511/https:/twitter.com/LucyLoveslife1/status/973852316787933184

@Helmetbymidnight

I'm with you pothole. Discussing the problems some neuro-diverse people have with lying is not 'card-playing' That is a horrible, dismissive thing to say.

Lying 🙄

yup

@Helmetbymidnight

Im glad my TW friend - who is built like a brick-shit house, is a foot taller than me and speaks...like the man he is...doesn't give a toss about pronouns - I guess that's the years of therapy, or maybe just not being controlling or narcissistic perhaps?

Blibby outlined the feminist case against preferred pronouns brilliantly. Even if there weren't an incredibly strong feminist case, or if I didn't give a shit about women's rights, (I do!) I wouldn't use preferred pronouns anyway. For me, its very important to be myself and lead the authentic life I am meant to lead - so I don't lie to please others or to join in their delusions. I don't call non-doctors doctors, non-graduates graduates, small people tall, white people black, etc, etc. Funnily enough, those things are regarded as quite acceptable - but when a man tells you he's a woman, you're meant to contort yourself into a ball to not offend him.
Fuck. That.

What about a young teen female wanting to be a boy? That’s what most trans are, are you that hostile towards them?

@Helmetbymidnight

yup

And that's not horrible and dismissive.

@Karwomannghia

You're not allowed to mention this reality.

We are to pretend that all trans are like the big bad bullies on twitter who don't care about anyone who is not NT or women, rather than the reality which is teens wanting to be accepted.

I have only just found this. I've been going through this with my teen boys for three years. My eldest son came out as trans and furry at 15-16 and I was so fucking naive. Then my youngest son at the 16 three years later. My eldest has come through it but only after being arrested and cautioned for sharing hideous anime drawings (hentai?). Thena found my youngest actually drawing the dam style of pictures and that was a really fun weekend in my house. Both are very gentle and hate toxic masculinity and when I pointed out to them that women do NOT take part in that sort of porn they pointed out that actually they do. I said the numbers were skewed by their stupid generation and added to the internet. I've told them very firmly that if they access any type of porn in my house they would homeless. I've locked down everything since the arrest.

we have now come to an agreement to not discuss trans. Because I blew up at them hugely one night and told them how they were proving they were men by not only wanting access to female spaces but by expecting it. That them knowing my history of sexual abuse and rape as a child, that I struggle with strange work men etc in my house is bad but they want me to be in a position where I couldn't even go to a public toilet and piss without being scared of a man being in there showed how little they thought of me and how much they thought of themselves. That their entitlement is obvious in every way and I was ashamed of them.

Didn't go down well but I'm past caring. At 21 and 18 they can get their own place and do whatever they want now. I've spent 5 years on suicide watch and dealing with this shot from them. No more.

I used to work with a trans woman and was careful to use her preferred name and pronouns. She made an effort to present as a woman, which made her pronouns much easier to remember. It also didn’t bother me that my colleague used the ladies’ toilets - in fact it took me months to notice that she did. However, if her preferred pronouns had been they/their or xe/xir, I would have found that very difficult.

In those days, we had a client who had bought a title online. I didn’t really believe he was a Viscount (not that titles mean much to me), but I began my letters to him with Dear Viscount Smith (not actual title), because that was what he liked to be called.

I don’t think I’m transphobic. I just don’t want sex-based rights erased in law.

I am always astounded by otherwise bright intelligent people claiming it is too confusing for their brains to manage he /she or they.

I used to work with a trans woman and was careful to use her preferred name and pronouns. She made an effort to present as a woman, which made her pronouns much easier to remember. It also didn’t bother me that my colleague used the ladies’ toilets - in fact it took me months to notice that she did.

Women were not consulted or advised prior to their male colleague starting using the female toilets? I wonder in such circumstances if those female colleagues/visitors who had objections / were detrimentally impacted by loss of female single sex space would have been able to raise them.

@R0wantrees

I used to work with a trans woman and was careful to use her preferred name and pronouns. She made an effort to present as a woman, which made her pronouns much easier to remember. It also didn’t bother me that my colleague used the ladies’ toilets - in fact it took me months to notice that she did.

Women were not consulted or advised prior to their male colleague starting using the female toilets? I wonder in such circumstances if those female colleagues/visitors who had objections / were detrimentally impacted by loss of female single sex space would have been able to raise them.

No, funnily enough women were not 'consulted' on something that has absolutely squiff all to do with them.

They could raise it, however.

I’m always astounded by otherwise bright intelligent people claiming it’s possible for human beings to change sex, but here we are.

So using sex-based pronouns - the way 99% of the world use them and have for hundreds of years is an act of hostility now?

What about a young teen female wanting to be a boy? That’s what most trans are, are you that hostile towards them?

Not at all hostile towards them, no. But they are young teen females - they are not Doctors, Emperors, cats, Professors, Old, or Male.
No teen should have their identity bound up in forcing other people to be dishonest. Looking to strangers for validation is a really stupid path and I am astonished so many otherwise bright intelligent people think its something teenagers should chase.

@JensonsAcolyte

I’m always astounded by otherwise bright intelligent people claiming it’s possible for human beings to change sex, but here we are.

But that is two unrelated statements.

No self respecting NT intelling human being can genuinely claim in good faith that they just can't possibly cope with using he or she.

What you think here is irrelevant. It's not about you

@Helmetbymidnight

So using sex-based pronouns - the way 99% of the world use them and have for hundreds of years is an act of hostility now?

What about a young teen female wanting to be a boy? That’s what most trans are, are you that hostile towards them?

Not at all hostile towards them, no. But they are young teen females - they are not Doctors, Emperors, cats, Professors, Old, or Male.
No teen should have their identity bound up in forcing other people to be dishonest. Looking to strangers for validation is a really stupid path and I am astonished so many otherwise bright intelligent people think its something teenagers should chase.

🙄 what a crock of absolute nonsense.

You think it’s fine that women were not consulted about the removal of a single sex space at work

Are there any women’s rights you wouldn’t be happy to give to men?

Oh ChiefBabySniffer, that sounds absolutely horrendous

@Biscuitsanddoombar

You think it’s fine that women were not consulted about the removal of a single sex space at work

Are there any women’s rights you wouldn’t be happy to give to men?

Yes, I think it's fine. The fact anyone thinks any poor human being should have to have their toilet use discussed and approved before they start work beggars belief.

No, funnily enough women were not 'consulted' on something that has absolutely squiff all to do with them.

Employers have obligations under Section 20 of The Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992 to provide separate sex toilet facilities.

That you dismiss women's rights to the dignity, privacy and safety of such space as "squiff all to do with them" is telling.

Nope, nonsense is the suggestion that girls must be called boys and men must be called women otherwise you are hostile.

And if you can't do it because you are Neuro-diverse you are playing the disability card.

FFS.

Identify how you like - why is it so important to you that we all get involved in it?

@R0wantrees

No, funnily enough women were not 'consulted' on something that has absolutely squiff all to do with them.

Employers have obligations under Section 20 of The Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992 to provide separate sex toilet facilities.

That you dismiss women's rights to the dignity, privacy and safety of such space as "squiff all to do with them" is telling.

Telling of what?

You know as well as i do that they are under no obligation to provide separate toilet in relation to trans (funnily enough with the legislation written in 92). But even if they were , they certainly don't have to consult women on their opinion!

@Helmetbymidnight

Nope, nonsense is the suggestion that girls must be called boys and men must be called women otherwise you are hostile.

And if you can't do it because you are Neuro-diverse you are playing the disability card.

FFS.

Identify how you like - why is it so important to you that we all get involved in it?

I didn't say that.

At all.

Not being able to do it is fine.

Consistently bringing up groups of people who can't as a reason to try and dismiss it is playing the card.

Well, that's a ridiculous non argument that we wouldn't say about anything else. Imagine someone talking about the current drive for female safety and someone saying meh why should I get involved?

You miss the point. For people's pronouns to be respected, people need to erm, respect the pronouns. So that involves you

@R0wantrees

No, funnily enough women were not 'consulted' on something that has absolutely squiff all to do with them.

Employers have obligations under Section 20 of The Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992 to provide separate sex toilet facilities.

That you dismiss women's rights to the dignity, privacy and safety of such space as "squiff all to do with them" is telling.

Absolutely.

chiefbabysniffer, that sounds so, so difficult