I had the most awful row with my teenagers yesterday

[JensonsAcolyte]

Both totally TWAW adherents.

DS is 18, his girlfriend is Non Binary and goes by a made up name (male Greek god). I am polite and go along with pronouns and use their chosen name.

For some reason Eddie Izzard came up at dinner time and I ‘misgendered’ them. DS really started laying into me about my bigotry so I played him the clip of Eddie saying Eddie has boy mode and girl mode and uses both sets of pronouns (I've tied myself in knots there as I don’t want to be deleted).

It came out in the conversation that DS believes, absolutely and 100%, that Izzard has changed sex. Actually changed sex. And that if DH came down for breakfast this morning and announced he was now a woman then DS would absolutely 100% believe that he had changed sex overnight.

DD was chiming in at this point and said that actually she would like to go by she/they as sometimes she identifies as ‘less female’. I was a bit irate by this point and I’m afraid I said that is navel gazing bollocks (oops).

Anyway it all got a bit shouty, and then DS dropped in that ‘some lesbians have genital preferences, and ultimately that’s transphobic but nobody’s trying to force anyone to have sex with anyone’ and I lost my shit a bit. I’d hoped this nonsense was confined to Twitter tbh and I hadn’t really seen it in the wild.

I told him he was a privileged, woke little shit. That lesbians my age have spent their entire lives having to justify their sexuality, being told they just haven’t met the right man, not to mention the sexual assaults and corrective rapes. And now are being told they are BIGOTS for not including penis. I was really angry. He then turned round and said the reason his girlfriend (and yes he calls them his girlfriend which is a whole nother eye roll) doesn’t like coming here is because I’m well known for being a Terf and she feels unsafe.

I’ve basically left it as saying I don’t adhere to your religion but that doesn’t make me hateful or phobic, we had a bit more of an argument where he tried to say it’s not a religion but actually I think I made that point quite clear. I don’t believe in God but that doesn’t mean I hate Christians, I don’t believe people can change sex but that doesn’t make me Transphobic.

I’ve woken up this morning and I just still feel sick about it all. He called me some dreadful things, bigot, hateful, dangerous. I said some things I regret, particularly about the arrant nonsense that is non binary, I’m usually a lot more measured than that to avoid offence but I was just so angry.

Is anyone else having this with their teens? I could do with a bit of solidarity, advice maybe or just a hand hold.

Given the male propensity for certain behaviours eg haematophilia and urologia, it is perhaps not unsurprising that women feel uneasy, even with cubicles, sharing toilet facilities with members of the opposite sex.

Women dealing with mooncups, menstrual blood or miscarriage will not wish to have their male colleagues standing alongside them at the washbasin.
Employers have an obligation to provide single sex toilets.

Yeah it's not just teenagers. I can't discuss this with my brother, he's 48. We have never really disagreed or fallen out ( apart from over toys when we were kids) until this. I know we are on opposing camps so I avoid the subject now.

Yeah it's not just teenagers. I can't discuss this with my brother, he's 48. We have never really disagreed or fallen out ( apart from over toys when we were kids) until this. I know we are on opposing camps so I avoid the subject now.

Its interesting to see how widespread male objection to women standing up for their sex-based rights and the Safeguarding of children and the various male behaviour responses.
Also how in so many cases the pushback against women is such that they are required or decide not to speak of it again with those they are close to.

Blimey, this is a teacher being this nasty?

But has very successfully derailed this thread I see

I didn't derail anything.

And I'm far from nasty

But thanks guys

@R0wantrees

I have found over the years that the majority of female people do not need to spend long thinking of circumstances when a male colleague in the women's toilets might seriously compromise women's dignity and/or privacy as well as them being/ feeling safe.

Mmm.

It is of course possible when one only thinks of the most extreme example and moves away from day to day realistic outcomes, of course.

The definition of derailing on MN has gone very strange. At no point has anyone discussed anything off topic. But derailing now appears to be 'anyrhijf we don't agree with outside of the echo chamber '

Women dealing with mooncups, menstrual blood or miscarriage are not 'extreme' examples. These are day to day realities of women's lives.

I don't disagree . But that isn't the usual argument.

I'm all for single sex. What I'm not for is people believing they should be consulted, and this ongoing idea that it is up to women to decide how things are for trans people is where they go and what pronouns they can use.

I'm all for single sex. What I'm not for is people believing they should be consulted, and this ongoing idea that it is up to women to decide how things are for trans people is where they go and what pronouns they can use.

If you are proposing to change a single sex facility to a mixed sex one ,surely the first thing you do us consult the people using this single sex facility?

@334bu

*I'm all for single sex. What I'm not for is people believing they should be consulted, and this ongoing idea that it is up to women to decide how things are for trans people is where they go and what pronouns they can use.*

If you are proposing to change a single sex facility to a mixed sex one ,surely the first thing you do us consult the people using this single sex facility?

But they arent doing that.

They simply employed a TW.

You have zero right to know that a TW is joining your team. How would that be fair?

@Butwasitherdriveway

I am always astounded by otherwise bright intelligent people claiming it is too confusing for their brains to manage he /she or they.

I am confused.

You believe people when they tell you it is better for them when you refer to them in a specific way of their choosing (even when they will mostly not be present when you do that ) but you will not believe other people who tell you that they find it difficult and potentially distressing.

Why do you believe some people and not others?

@IDontOnlyLikeJazzFunk not clear what you're asking here I'm afraid. I've said nothing of the sort.

I'm all for single sex. What I'm not for is people believing they should be consulted, and this ongoing idea that it is up to women to decide how things are for trans people is where they go and what pronouns they can use.

Pronouns are used by the person speaking and/or writing.
Female sex spaces are provided for people who are female.

There is a MN saying that your right to swing your arm stops when it risks coming into contact with my nose.

@R0wantrees

Women dealing with mooncups, menstrual blood or miscarriage will not wish to have their male colleagues standing alongside them at the washbasin. Employers have an obligation to provide single sex toilets.

Prominent transwomen in the cubicle next to them who then snigger with their mate on Twitter about the sound of a woman weeing...

Re. Because that group of people doesn't need defending because I never attacked them in the first place. I don't have a problem with cants. I have a problem with wonts.

How can we tell who is a ‘can’t’ vs who is a ‘won’t’?

Do the ‘can’t’s have to put their hands up and admit to neuro difficulties to ‘excuse’ not complying with compelled non sex based pronoun use?

Why should anyone dictate language to anyone else?

What I'm not for is people believing they should be consulted, and this ongoing idea that it is up to women to decide how things are for trans people is where they go and what pronouns they can use.

When it’s women’s single sex spaces, which are LEGAL in the UK, then I should jolly well think that women must be consulted.

Or shall I come to your house and tell you who will be moving in there tomorrow?

[quote Butwasitherdriveway]@IDontOnlyLikeJazzFunk not clear what you're asking here I'm afraid. I've said nothing of the sort.[/quote]
Sorry didn’t see this. My point is that you seem to take on board that some need other people to use their preferred pronouns.

You don’t seem to believe other people when they say they find that difficult, whether that is for specific neurological reasons or a matter of principle/freedom of thought and speech.

I see that from some of your recent posts you say that you understand that some people can’t belie the reality they see in front of them for neuro reasons (see my other post) but what if some people also struggle with the principle involved?

Sorry didn’t see this. My point is that you seem to take on board that some need other people to use their preferred pronouns.

Nobody 'needs' to control the pronouns other people use. Its not possible to however much it might be wanted.

@JensonsAcolyte

I’m always astounded by otherwise bright intelligent people claiming it’s possible for human beings to change sex, but here we are.

I think the trouble is that cosmetic (and other forms of) surgery is so commonplace nowadays that people really do seem to expect their outer physical appearance to mirror however they happen to feel.

Gosh, and there was me thinking I was an arsehole teenager! Bless XXX

You have zero right to know that a TW is joining your team. How would that be fair?

If they are expecting to share my changing room etc. I think I do have a right to know that a member of the opposite sex will be there.

I am always astounded by otherwise bright intelligent people claiming it is too confusing for their brains to manage he /she or they.

Barra Kerr
(extract)
"One of the biggest obstacles to halting the stampede over women’s rights is pronoun and preferred name ‘courtesy’. People severely underestimate the psychological impact to themselves, and to others, of compliance."

Pronouns are like Rohypnol.
They dull your defences. They change your inhibitions. They’re meant to. You’ve had a lifetime’s experience learning to be alert to ‘him’ and relax to ‘her’. For good reason. This instinctive response keeps you safe. It’s not even a conscious thing. It’s like your hairs standing on end. Your subconscious brain is helping you not get eaten by the sabre tooth tiger that your eyes haven’t noticed yet.

Incongruent pronouns also make your brain work much harder; not just when you are using them, but when you are receiving them as information. You are working constantly to keep that story straight in your head. Male or female? Which one, again? Concentrate harder. Ignore your instincts, ignore your reaction.

And that’s just you. You’re already aware of all the pertinent information, already alert, you know the score, no flies on you.

And you’re still affected emotionally and instinctively by incongruent pronouns, nouns, and names. Despite your efforts to be immune. You’re not immune to this effect. You can know perfectly the actual sex of a male person, and yet you will still react differently if someone calls them she instead of he.

So what then, is the impact on everyone who isn’t even aware yet, hasn’t fully comprehended yet what’s going on? (continues)

fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/