Is there any such thing as gender identity?

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Here is an article by Alex Byrne, Professor of Philosophy at MIT:
What is gender identity?

Byrne concludes, in part, as follows:
' If there is some kind of “gender identity” that is universal in humans, and which causes dysphoria when mismatched with sex, it remains elusive. No one has yet found a way of detecting its presence, and verifying that it is causally responsible for dysphoria .'

In fact, it seems, there just is no such thing as gender identity in the way trans ideologues intend. Some, noticing lack of anything like it in themselves, nevertheless allow that others may nevertheless suffer from its presence. I think this mistaken, factually and strategically.

The existence of gender identity is foundational for much trans ideology. Its importance can be deduced from its inclusion in Humpty Dumpty’s Stonewall's glossary entry on transphobia, 'including denying ... gender identity ', as part of orthodox trans dogma.

The foundations of trans ideology are built on the quicksand of gender identity. Pointing out the shaky nature of these foundations cannot but assist in demolishing the whole edifice of this ideology before it does any more harm to women, children, and wider society in general.

Of course those who believe in gender identity should not be discriminated against or disadvantaged in any way because of such belief, any more than should believers in guardian angels or invisible human auras. It does not follow that such beliefs themselves should be given any credence. Nor, a fortiori , does it follow that social policy or law should be based on any such beliefs.

There is no such thing as gender identity.

Or, perhaps science progresses is there now some way of detecting its presence, contrary to Alex Byrne's assertion?

this is a contradictory statement

Oh, a blog by Katie Montgomerie? Ambassador you're spoiling us.

You know the many, many ways in which women are discriminated against, and not just because of their genitals

Why do you keep going on about genitals?

They need their OWN set of protections against oppression that DO NOT conflict with those set up for women and girls (aka females). Why are you so keen on diminishing the conflicts of the currently proposed rights? Do you have daughters

This is the crux of the conflict. Nothing to do with equal rights. Nobody is against equal rights.

Discrete provisions are what should be campaigned for; not the colonisation of those of another quite discrete group. That of women and girls ( females).

Making the point that when women started being relegated to second class sex, ‘gender’ wasn’t a thing, it was purely as a result of women being the childbearing sex. Saying women have been oppressed due to ‘gender’ is a falsehood

Exactly!
Gender identities are a relatively recent construct. Before that people simply played around and experimented with different gender norms and expressions.

When this vague intangible thing called gender is conflated with the facts of sex you are led into ever more fanciful and speculative universes. It is a big rabbit hole to fall down. Then you end up in wonderland.

Some women don't have children so won't necessarily suffer the problems you have experienced that are directly related to you having children. They are still women though.

They will have experienced sexist discrimination most of their life because of their ability to birth a child.

More importantly, and this is key, they are not seeking to access rights that are NOT legislated for a group that they do not belong to. They are not seeking to dilute these rights by insisting that they have access to them. Because it is rare that a female doesn't need to access at least some of those rights at one time in their life, even through to menopause and after.

Moving away from employment discrimination examples -

Even to the specific right of having the right to request a same sex health care professional to carry out any intimate procedure without being labelled as transphobic. We have seen this right significantly challenged lately by one of the NHS trusts who used a rape survivor's letter about requiring a female HCP being used as an example of 'transphobia'.

There are many rights where the needs of females should never be put in the position of being challenged, diluted or diminished in anyway due to their female sexed body. Pregnancy is just one.

Man and woman do not map neatly to biological categories - transgender people have always existed and we wouldn’t even be having this discussion if this wasn’t the case

Yes, they do.

The reason we are having this discussion is because of the advent of Queer Theories which postulate that the only real thing is the presentation of self. That sex is constructed. It is the apotheosis of post modernist thought and construction - borne out of a consumer society in which the individual is king, and is able to create or purchase any reality they like.

Before that people in all ages and times have struggled with social roles and expectations as they relate to their sex. Some have also struggled with their sexuality. Some struggled with dysmorphia. The human condition is a struggle for us all.

Here’s my radical thought - women without a degree in philosophy are still allowed a valid interpretation of what a woman is and what their sense of being a woman consists of.
I know I’m a woman because I’m deathly tired due to the anaemia caused by acute blood loss from my perimenopausal body. I’ve lost five thousand pounds in income and a managerial position due to the effects of perimenopause.
Not all women have experienced this, but some have. Zero men or transwomen ever will.

How do you know you know, given that if you didn't know, you wouldn't know you didn't know?

many things give transwomen away. I have poor enough vision that I look at many other cues other than clothes/make up/ etc. I am rarely wrong. Proportions of body parts and facial structure and gait (even in heels) are an immediate cue for me. It helps not seeing the distraction of deliberate cues.

I see it, but don't give any reaction unless I need to. And I am sure that many other women have found similar.

So, we have another link to a person who has been implicated in sexually harassing a woman on social media. And who, along with another transwoman, mocked female's toilet habits and this is just the past 2 - 3 months....

And you think that this person is the best spokesperson for how transwomen 'pass' and handwaving away misogyny? Really?.... with their on-line behaviour?

And on this board, regulars are constantly told how problematic our views are because our views 'align' with 'right wing and evangelical religions'. I have never seen a woman mock another woman for 'hovering' and making toilet noises. Unless they were 10.

Ever. Even once.

KM also got called out for being a bit TERFy recently after saying that it was ok to have a preference for particular types of genitals in a sexual partner.

Right, and passing trans women are passed over on the assumption that they too may get pregnant.

This just doesn't happen. There are not loads of trans women who pass. There really aren't. In any case, you seem so hung up on the idea of young trans women that "pass". A LOT of trans women transition in later life and don't pass at all. Why do you think they are subject to sex discrimination?

Man and woman do not map neatly to biological categories - transgender people have always existed and we wouldn’t even be having this discussion if this wasn’t the case

Everyone (well almost everyone) including trans people fit pretty neatly into biological categories. They may find it difficult to fit into traditional gender categories - women certainly do. Trans gennder people have always existed but it is only recently that they have started to claim that sex has no relevance as a class category.

@Justhadathought

You know the many, many ways in which women are discriminated against, and not just because of their genitals

Why do you keep going on about genitals?

I don’t. This is first time I’ve mentioned it, in the context of trans women suffering from many forms of sexism, regardless of their sex recorded at birth.

'Man and woman do not map neatly to biological categories'.

They do because man and woman are words for people who are adult humans and male/ female respectively.

Are you thinking of masculine/ feminine maybe.

‘Sexism regardless of their sex’ 🤦🏼‍♀️

It’s possible for somebody to suffer from discrimination because they are perceived to be Muslim, regardless of whether they are Muslim. That does not mean that it’s impossible to define ‘Muslim’ or that the definition of Muslim is ‘people who suffer discrimination because they are thought to be Muslim’.

However, dadjoke, you appear to be using this flawed logic when you talk about sex.

'This is first time I’ve mentioned it, in the context of trans women suffering from many forms of sexism, regardless of their sex recorded at birth.'

?????

If a trans woman or transman totally passes then they could well experience discrimination on the basis of their perceived sex. They would obviously not experience transpobic discrimination because they are not perceived as trans.

Very few trans people pass though, in real life.

The ones that don't yes will get shit. Of course they will. I would imagine (but happy to have explained otherwise) how it differs from the abuse and discrimination that gay men and lesbians, and GNC people get. It's pretty much from the same place- not confirming to the gender norms for their sex, surely. Also if there is a GNC man or woman they could get abuse etc as they are perceived as trans (or homosexual). A man or woman who had attributes that led to someone thinking they were trans- being very short or tall, having an unusual high or deep voice, bone structure more common in the opposite sex could get discrimination/ abuse because of being perceived as trans as well.

So there's a lot of overlap and it comes down really to people not meeting the 'norm' for their sex.

Of course internal gender is not linked to presentation. That's why I'm not sure why Shiz is focusing so much on people who do change their appearance, maybe have hormones or surgery, and who pass.

A trans woman or non binary male who has a masculine presentation is very unlikely to experience abuse or discrimination due to being perceived as trans. And ditto the other way around.

And I still don't understand why we need to change everything that was segregated by sex, to internal gender ID. That really doesn't work for all the non binary identities. Why not just have everything mixed? What is the purpose of segregating on internal gender?

So to Shiz and DadJoke.

What is the purpose, the rationale for segregating everything that was done by sex, on the basis of internal gender ID?

Sex segregation was done in some things on the basis of bodies. Due to risk, advantage (sports), that sort of thing.

Why do we need to segregate on the basis of internal gender ID?

And what of all the people who have non binary identities or don't have one. Where do they go, given that the two categories available are not suited to them?

It would be constructive to the thread, I think, if you can say why you want this (the need for it) and what happens to people who aren't in one of the two categories that are generally catered to.

I don’t. This is first time I’ve mentioned it, in the context of trans women suffering from many forms of sexism, regardless of their sex recorded at birth.

The forms of sexism the vast majority of MTF trans people suffer from is limited to people discriminating against them for presenting as a GNC male. No one, including most of them or their allies, sees them as exactly the same as women or has exactly the same prejudiced expectations about them as they do about women.

Again I think it would be useful to get to specifics.

It goes without saying that a trans woman who passes could experience sexism based on their perceived sex.

What of those who don't pass, or who have an internal trans ID but chose not to reflect this in their external appearance?

Those who are perceived as male, essentially. What sexism will they be exposed to? You said many forms, can you give some examples?

Noting that you were focusing on transwomen's experience which is why I haven't mentioned transmen.

I think this is the right thread - were we discussing stats earlier? My battery is about to go so I can't check. Someone previously claimed that there are no problems in Ireland and that mtf transgender people represent no increased risk to women.

This was tweeted today:

An est. 400 GRCs have been issued to trans I.D males since the GRA was enacted, based off these figures and @IrishPrisons stats, avg. committal for sexual offences per population is:
1 in 600,000 for female
1 in 2,500 for male
1 in 200 for trans I.D males
9:18 PM · Mar 25, 2021·Twitter Web App

I read it as offenders with a GRC, not just self identified transwomen. I would imagine it represents 2 offenders with a GRC, but there may be other transwomen in the male (and possibly even female) figures.