Is there any such thing as gender identity?

[9toenails]

Here is an article by Alex Byrne, Professor of Philosophy at MIT:
What is gender identity?

Byrne concludes, in part, as follows:
' If there is some kind of “gender identity” that is universal in humans, and which causes dysphoria when mismatched with sex, it remains elusive. No one has yet found a way of detecting its presence, and verifying that it is causally responsible for dysphoria .'

In fact, it seems, there just is no such thing as gender identity in the way trans ideologues intend. Some, noticing lack of anything like it in themselves, nevertheless allow that others may nevertheless suffer from its presence. I think this mistaken, factually and strategically.

The existence of gender identity is foundational for much trans ideology. Its importance can be deduced from its inclusion in Humpty Dumpty’s Stonewall's glossary entry on transphobia, 'including denying ... gender identity ', as part of orthodox trans dogma.

The foundations of trans ideology are built on the quicksand of gender identity. Pointing out the shaky nature of these foundations cannot but assist in demolishing the whole edifice of this ideology before it does any more harm to women, children, and wider society in general.

Of course those who believe in gender identity should not be discriminated against or disadvantaged in any way because of such belief, any more than should believers in guardian angels or invisible human auras. It does not follow that such beliefs themselves should be given any credence. Nor, a fortiori , does it follow that social policy or law should be based on any such beliefs.

There is no such thing as gender identity.

Or, perhaps science progresses is there now some way of detecting its presence, contrary to Alex Byrne's assertion?

Here is written evidence submitted to the WESC oral evidence session

committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/

The Swedish study is one of them and it gets slated by TRA mainly because of statements the authors made after publishing about not disagregating by sex, but the article addresses that and the data is available to view and looks to be un ambiguous. Also it deals only with fully transitioned trans folk on hormones.

All the MOJ information is entirely objective.

the life of a passable trans woman is so like yours in so many ways that the only notable difference is that the trans woman can't get pregnant

That could well be true, but then I don't think my day to day life is that different to an average man.

The reason I need specific sex based rights is because of my sex, and very much because of the consequences of having a body of the type that becomes pregnant.

If you are infertile, you share that with her too.

This is a site with pages and pages of women talking about female specific fertility treatment and the toll it takes on their lives. I find it very, very offensive that you think this is at all comparable to somebody born with a functioning male reproductive system. If I didn't think you were making this comment out of ignorance, I would believe it to be deliberately abusive.

I mean I could go on, but the life of a passable trans woman is so like yours in so many ways that the only notable difference is that the trans woman can't get pregnant. If you are infertile, you share that with her too.

How old are you? You have no understanding of or empathy for the experience of women at all. This erases so many facets of the experience of being female I don't know where to start.

"The life of a passable trans woman is so like yours in so many ways that the only notable difference is that the trans woman can't get pregnant"

Well..The life of a man is so like mine in so many ways that the only notable differences are directly or indirectly related to to fertility, pregnancy, childbirth and motherhood.

Well maybe we have the same pantyhose ladder issues, lipstick trouble and sexual harrasment in common. giggle.

Ok. Trans women who can pass are welcome in the womens toilet. How can we guarantee the only trans women who come in are indistinguishable from females?

Dadjoke, I know you don't know what you are talking about because you talk about 'cis' women as though it would be possible to control the consequences of sex by simply not being 'cis'.

This with knobs on.

I identify out of it.
Oh no, wait. That doesn't fucking work

Trans women as a class are not a threat to cis women. By all means point to the evidence from a non-GC feminist source that trans women are as violent as cis men. Cherry-picking examples of individuals is not evidence.

How many examples of individual transwomen that have attacked and raped women and girls are enough to count as evidence?
Where is the evidence that they are not as violent as other males? If you can demonstrate a difference, at what point in transition does this change?

On the basis that trans women have been using the loos that match with their gender for years, and that self-ID in other countries has not affected crime stats in bathrooms in the States, it's simply not true.

How do you know it hasn't affected crime stats in bathrooms in the States? They generally avoid counting that sort of crime so that information is not available.

Some transsexuals have historically used the ladies facilities in the UK. Some mtf transsexuals have used the men's with no apparent problems. This has been a tiny number (less than 5000) compared to the number now which estimates put at anywhere between 500,000 and 2 million (it would have been helpful if the census could have gathered some accurate data on this but hey ho ).

This has not been with any actual consent of women, in fact we weren't asked. In some cases the transsexuals were mindful of their 'guest' status and were discreet. In other cases, they will have caused upset to women but again, that data is not gathered as no one cares.

The old school transsexuals are not what we are talking about now though. The new style transgender person, some of whom 'choose not to transition their appearance' and appear fully male, have no intention of being discreet and considering the feelings of women, whose space they are determined to access.

There is no evidence that mtf transgender people are in any more danger of attack in the men's facilities than any other vulnerable male group so if you are basing it on risk to their safety, that doesn't work. I fail to see any reason why they can't use the toilets of their birth sex. If they choose not to, that is fine - I would not object to the provision of third spaces for their use.

Can you explain why a person like Alex Drummond or Danielle Muscato would have any issue with using either the men's or a third, neutral space? They are going to face zero extra risk in the men's facilities so why do they feel the need to use our space?

We have a legal right to our single sex spaces and they are not up for grabs.

Likewise, even if you accepted that trans women as a class were no threat to cis women, you would still oppose trans women using women's loos, so again, this argument is disingenuous.

I oppose any male people using the female single sex spaces, facilities and provisions.

"No, the study does not show that medical transition results in suicide or suicidal ideation. The study explicitly states that such is not the case and those using this study to make that claim are using fallacious logic. No, the study does not prove that trans women are rapists or likely to be rapists. The “male pattern of criminality” found in the 1973 to 1988 cohort group was not a euphemism for rape. No, the study does not prove that trans women exhibit male socialization. The “male pattern of criminality” found in the 1973 to 1988 cohort group was not a claim that trans women were convicted of the same types of crime as cis men."

FFS @Shizuku you see what you want to see!

• That was not a statement from the original study. It was from an interview a few years later by the lead investigator. Sounds like they were hedging due to presure and critisism from TRA's to me.
• It deals only with fully transitioned trans people on long term hormones and STILL:

-a male pattern of criminality was found in the 1973 to 1988 cohort. (though as you said It just didn't mean the crimes were necessarily rape)

• ‘for the 1989 to 2003 group, we did not find a male pattern

of criminality.’ The statement is only true in the trivial sense that patterns of criminality were simply not examined separately by sex for each period and so no such finding could be made. It is misleading as a reading of the paper of as a whole which found that males (including "MtF" transitioners) in the 1989 to 2003 group had male patterns of criminality and females (including FtM transtioners had female patterns).

This is a site with pages and pages of women talking about female specific fertility treatment and the toll it takes on their lives. I find it very, very offensive that you think this is at all comparable to somebody born with a functioning male reproductive system. If I didn't think you were making this comment out of ignorance, I would believe it to be deliberately abusive.

I think it is meant to be deliberately abusive merrymouse, what more could you expect from a poster that advocates the wholesale sterilisation of pre pubescent children and one who has no regard for the implications of the medication on them physically or mentally.

I ummed and aahed about reporting it but would rather it stood as an example of the kind of person pushing this TRA agenda.

I am interested in the ontology of 'gender identity', particularly as an essential grounding aspect of contemporary trans ideology. I started this thread expecting it it to die out fairly quickly, but here it is still going a week later.

I have read it through. Thank you all for contributing. A brief summary of the story so far? ...

... Take 'gender identity' to be something 'universal in humans which causes dysphoria when mismatched with sex' . Alex Byrne, whose characterisation this is, claimed of this kind of gender identity, 'No one has yet found a way of detecting its presence, and verifying that it is causally responsible for dyphoria' .

I asked if Byrne's claim still stood.

Many links have been posted, particularly but not uniquely, by the poster Shizuku, purporting to falsify Byrne's claim. Shizuku, I found, either did not understand many of the links she posted, or was disingenuous in her commentary thereon. I have read all the papers linked to. None of them contradicts Byrne's claim.

Much argument and rhetoric has been offered, by Shizuku and others, to the conclusion that, despite Byrne's claim that it is 'elusive', nevertheless there is such a thing as gender identity in the sense Byrne outlines. None of the arguments offered is sound.

There has been discussion about belief and consequential issues, and more general discussion about trans ideology and its societal impacts.

Answering the question in the thread title, though, we conclude there is no such thing as gender identity in the sense required as a basic foundation for trans ideology.

I mean I could go on, but the life of a passable trans woman is so like yours in so many ways that the only notable difference is that the trans woman can't get pregnant. If you are infertile, you share that with her too.

Can you please detail which exact ways in which a transwoman’s life is ‘so like’ a biological female’s? Using similarities that cannot be applied to any men as well?

‘Cis’ men can’t get pregnant either. Do you feel they are therefore more aligned with infertile women? Even if they themselves are fertile? Plain ridiculous.

Let's cut to the chase.

Shiz can you say which of these statements you agree with and which you don't? I refer to England as it's where I live and Scotland has different laws.

Gender ID should be the determinent of male/ female/ woman/ man/girl/boy in England

A person's gender ID is based on their self declaration

Things that are/ were segregated by sex should be altered across the board to segregation by gender ID. Or, do you want everything mixed?

Do you believe that everything should be done on gender ID (sports, prisons, support groups, refuges etc?

Do non binary people etc go to the things that fit best for them?

A trans man should then be in a male prison? Whatever stage of transition or however they present. To put them in a female prison would be a beach of human rights of the women, because they are male .

How should sex and reproduction, contraception etc be taught in schools? People with penises and people with vaginas?

Can you really see no issues with headlines like. Uighar people with vaginas subject to systematic rape in Chinese camps?

It would help if you laid out your views really.

I mean I could go on, but the life of a passable trans woman is so like yours in so many ways that the only notable difference is that the trans woman can't get pregnant. If you are infertile, you share that with her too.

I am intrigued Shiz and Dadjoke as to why you are so determined to erase trans people. Trans people, as you describe so frequently have their own challenges in life.

The challenges of trans people are partly made of their birth sex (for whichever portion of their life they present as that sex) and then challenges of being trans.

Their challenges are not the same as those experienced by the opposite sex. That is impossible. The challenges they do experience should be identified and considered when making policies that aim to balance the rights and needs of different groups fairly.

It is not helpful to trans people to attempt to conflate their challenges with the challenges experienced by members of the opposite sex, and not fair on the members of the opposite sex to have their unique challenges ignored, denied and renamed in the process.

There’s a critical difference between autogynephilia and most other sexual orientations: Most other orientations aren’t erotically disrupted simply by being labeled. When you call a typical gay man homosexual, you’re not disturbing his sexual hopes and desires. By contrast, autogynephilia is perhaps best understood as a love that would really rather we didn’t speak its name. The ultimate eroticism of autogynephilia lies in the idea of really becoming or being a woman, not in being a natal male who desires to be a woman.
Alice Dreger, whose 2015 book Galileo’s Middle Finger

Mumsnet mods. I dont think autogynephilia is disputed concept as a legitimate paraphilia on social media anymore, and it is oft mentioned on here now too but if you are going to raze it, please just delete my post and not the thread.

@AdHominemNonSequitur has there been any investigation into whether the eroticism comes from making women feel discomfort etc? Knowing they cannot speak out and are socially obliged to go along with it?

Mumsnet, again please delete this post if it breaks any guidelines but not the thread!

No not at all, I believe it is an erotic target location error. A heterosexual orientation towards women, misdirected at self. You become the thing you desire. Embody your perfect woman. It's entirely self centred but as far as I am aware it isn't sadistic.

@AdHominemNonSequitur

No not at all, I believe it is an erotic target location error. A heterosexual orientation towards women, misdirected at self. You become the thing you desire. Embody your perfect woman. It's entirely self centred but as far as I am aware it isn't sadistic.

I’ve seen transwomen post photos taken in women’s toilet mirrors, of their erect penises. So I did wonder.

Who knows.

Certainly there's a lot to consider.

It seems that it's not unusual for late transitioning transwomen to start with underwear, onto clothes makeup, and it gets more frequent in until there is a desire to go outside dressed like that, and again more and more until full time.

I think (and these are just my thoughts having read some articles etc by trans women who have talked about this) that it does need talking about.

This isn't about all transwomen obviously.

So why would it be erotic?

Thrill of transgression. Men are really really not supposed to be feminine. Wear the clothes the makeup. Etc.

Toxic ideas about women and sex. Which these days are bolstered by mainstream het porn (essentially male sexual dominance). Reflected in (I've no first hand experience of these genres) sissy porn and forced feminisation.

Some of the things I've read in articles by transwomen in mainstream media are really really odd. Especially around breasts. And a strange assumption that women (cunty) are sexually excited by the way their breasts move when they run etc. Just really not sounding anything like I've ever heard cunty women say.

The fact that it's not uncommon for sex offenders to cross dress/ steal women's underwear etc is just a fact. And in fact that men who are not sex offenders often seem to enjoy trying women's underwear on. Why? My guess would be the as women are so commonly presented as sex objects in lingerie, the lingerie becomes synonymous with sex, with looking sexy.

I think anyone who truly believes that no man would ever declare a trans identity without the purest of reasons is either lying or in incredibly naive.

Or maybe just male... Given that men do not get the random weirdos in their paths in the same way the women and girls do... And that society still sees a man who is feminine as 'not a real man' and so any man who will do something so extreme must have good reason.

Trans women as a class are not a threat to cis women

it is not just about " threat" ( although that certainly exists), it is also about privacy and dignity, and about difference.

It is only in recent years that this radical push has occurred. Before that there was barely registered co-existence. That was in the days when a transexual ( 99% of the time MTF) was someone fully transitioned, and very few in number.

Transsexuals did not use terms like 'gender identity', which is a relatively modern construction. They also did not push for access to women's sports, or for the medical transition of children according to ideology. They also did not seek to wholesale alter language or basic concepts; or to forbid certain words. They were just seeking some peace within themselves.

Blanchard talks about partial autogynephilia here :
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8468711/
where a person imagines themselves with a mixture of male and female anatomic features.

It's pretty well described phenomenon.

I am suprised that mumsnet deleted a link to national Library of medicine articles. Ho hum. You can search your self though.

"autogynephilia pubmed" There are 5 types according to Hsu, Rosenthal and Bailey, 2015 not all associated with dysphoria.

If you are infertile, you share that with her too.

I have finally got back to this.

I read this, and I see someone who has absolutely no empathy for others. None. To post this on a forum called Mumsnet leaves me speechless.

In what way is a male not being able to be pregnant the same as a female with fertility issues? Please do be very, very clear.

In what way is a male, whose body has never had the capacity to birth a child, the same as a female who has a medical condition, even if it has never been diagnosed, that prevents her from carrying a child?

There is NO comparison in my mind. But obviously you feel you have some authority on the subject, so please tell us. I will wait.

It says so much about posters who come out with something as unbelievable as this.

It says so much about posters who come out with something as unbelievable as this.

The mask slips for a moment and what you see is pure misogyny.

You might not get an answer, we dropped the "A" bomb and I think it ruined the buzz for our moral crusaders. This thread is no longer validating.

@gardenbird48

I mean I could go on, but the life of a passable trans woman is so like yours in so many ways that the only notable difference is that the trans woman can't get pregnant. If you are infertile, you share that with her too.

I am intrigued Shiz and Dadjoke as to why you are so determined to erase trans people. Trans people, as you describe so frequently have their own challenges in life.

The challenges of trans people are partly made of their birth sex (for whichever portion of their life they present as that sex) and then challenges of being trans.

Their challenges are not the same as those experienced by the opposite sex. That is impossible. The challenges they do experience should be identified and considered when making policies that aim to balance the rights and needs of different groups fairly.

It is not helpful to trans people to attempt to conflate their challenges with the challenges experienced by members of the opposite sex, and not fair on the members of the opposite sex to have their unique challenges ignored, denied and renamed in the process.

Transgender people suffer sexism because of their gender, and transphobia because they are transgender, especially if they don't pass. This is basic intersectionality.

Men who harrass and abuse women are equal opportunity offenders. Sexist employers don't give special treatment to trans women. They have their own challenges around reproduction and healthcare. Clearly, people who give birth have different challenges to those who don't. Some transgender people are in that category, some aren't.

@9toenails
Byrne is a philosopher who doesn't believe we have privileged access to our own experience. If someone says they are in pain, we believe their subjective experience.

There is a great article which examines GC claims that they have no gender identity, in particular the claim "I have no gender identity, but I am a woman." I think all GC feminists will find it useful.

kim-hipwell.medium.com/three-gender-critical-mythologies-f3666c36d167