Is there any such thing as gender identity?

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Here is an article by Alex Byrne, Professor of Philosophy at MIT:
What is gender identity?

Byrne concludes, in part, as follows:
' If there is some kind of “gender identity” that is universal in humans, and which causes dysphoria when mismatched with sex, it remains elusive. No one has yet found a way of detecting its presence, and verifying that it is causally responsible for dysphoria .'

In fact, it seems, there just is no such thing as gender identity in the way trans ideologues intend. Some, noticing lack of anything like it in themselves, nevertheless allow that others may nevertheless suffer from its presence. I think this mistaken, factually and strategically.

The existence of gender identity is foundational for much trans ideology. Its importance can be deduced from its inclusion in Humpty Dumpty’s Stonewall's glossary entry on transphobia, 'including denying ... gender identity ', as part of orthodox trans dogma.

The foundations of trans ideology are built on the quicksand of gender identity. Pointing out the shaky nature of these foundations cannot but assist in demolishing the whole edifice of this ideology before it does any more harm to women, children, and wider society in general.

Of course those who believe in gender identity should not be discriminated against or disadvantaged in any way because of such belief, any more than should believers in guardian angels or invisible human auras. It does not follow that such beliefs themselves should be given any credence. Nor, a fortiori , does it follow that social policy or law should be based on any such beliefs.

There is no such thing as gender identity.

Or, perhaps science progresses is there now some way of detecting its presence, contrary to Alex Byrne's assertion?

@DadJoke

But you can’t assume is that transwomen have worse prospects because of assumptions about women, when the discrimination against them has nothing to do with being female. Can you give a specific example?

Hence “not just because of their genitals.” Trans women have worse prospects because of general assumptions made about women.

Only if it is assumed that their genitals are female.

Otherwise they are suffering worse prospects because they are perceived as gender non conforming men.

This may mean that they suffer greatly, but it is because it is assumed that they are male, not female.

Trans men can also suffer sexism because they are perceived to be female, because they are gender non conforming, and because they suffer structural discrimination because of their female bodies.

There are two types of illegal discrimination - direct and indirect. Neither can be controlled or reduced by feeling a gender identity, because the drivers are external.

Ego is irrelevant.

Unless the transwomen transition physically as children and "pass" both of which are rare , the problems and discrimination they face over thier lives are not that of women

They experience make socialisation in their formative years and trans discrimination later ... so many men are scared of gender none conformity

You could base all trans rights on a small number of people who pass, but is that really what you are suggesting?

Fundamentally I think this is a dispute between people who believe the point of rights is to assert identity, and people who realise (because of hard practical experience), that nobody gives a flying $*%! about your identity when they are restricting your rights.

I can think of one characteristic that might incline people to be in the first camp, and it is related to genitals...

They do not have exactly the same oppression as cis women or trans men.

You will not find many people on this board disagreeing with you on this.

They need their OWN set of protections against oppression that DO NOT conflict with those set up for women and girls (aka females). Why are you so keen on diminishing the conflicts of the currently proposed rights? Do you have daughters?

Are you quite happy that females have already achieved equality that you don't think that the focus on maintaining the drive anymore?

Are you perfectly comfortable that if that daughter went to university that she would have ample policies in place to protect her needs as a person with a female sexed body (of whatever gender identity she has)? That a male who has the role of 'women's officer' is making sure that all university policies including free speech, are addressing the needs of female students and staff.

Absolutely comfortable that that women's officer will maintain that focus and not shift it to their own agenda?

*Otherwise they are suffering worse prospects because they are perceived as gender non conforming men.

This may mean that they suffer greatly, but it is because it is assumed that they are male, not female.*

This needs to be stated again and again. Discrimination of TW is NOT because of biological sex. I asked earlier what I had in common with a TW and was told that we were basically the same. Let's take a concrete example. I teach and since I have been on maternity leave (now back at work) my career has stagnated. I earn far less than my husband. I cannot move to a different town to work which would be good for my career because I have caring responsibilities here. I have had to overcome medical issues related to childbirth. All of these are directly or indirecty related to my sex. (And I am only talking really about how sex affects my career not everything else). My trans student (who is lovely btw - I am not blaming them for this) will probably never have to face these problems. Up until a couple of years ago, they identified as male. Career-wise, they will not have any of the problems or obstacles that I have faced EVER. I am not saying that they won't have their own battles but they are not in anyway similar to mine - why should we be in the same category?

Otherwise they are suffering worse prospects because they are perceived as gender non conforming men.

This. It's more akin to homophobia.

Do you really need a list? Trans women experience this, too.

Yes, a wide range of people with protected characteristics experience discrimination and harassment. That is why there are 9 characteristics in the Equality Act.

Gender reassignment discrimination is separate to sex.

It’s also relevant that it’s possible to have a GRA and suffer discrimination as a trans woman and recognise that your sex is male.

How do you explain that the oppression of women started before ‘gender’ was a thing?

..or that it even started at all? How do you think one sex managed to become the dominant one? Because they weren’t wearing dresses? I wonder if it’s anything to do with the fact the dominant sex didn’t have to carry babies and risk their life to give birth to them, and is physically larger and stronger...

or that it even started at all? How do you think one sex managed to become the dominant one? Because they weren’t wearing dresses?

Some hilarious genderist logic.

What is it about the female anatomy that might have made a dress seem more appropriate before the invention of indoor plumbing? 🤔

Transgender people suffer sexism because of their gender, and transphobia because they are transgender, especially if they don't pass. This is basic intersectionality.

if they don't pass, how are they going to be subjected to sexism (unless of course we are talking about transmen in which case I agree that intersectionality plays a part - they suffer both for being female and trans).

The vast majority of mtf trans people don't pass. They are not able to fully conceal their trans identity from employers unless they have a GRC which is approx. 5000 people. I would be very surprised if any employers were so blatantly sexist that they openly treated a tw as badly as they treat some women just because they perceived them to be female.

Most of the discrimination experienced by women (apart from the obvious getting sacked when pregnant etc) is structural and involves work conditions that indirectly discriminate against women because they are responsible for childcare etc. Tw are just extremely unlikely, if ever to get caught up in that situation.

And if they do, and they don't like it then they have a very obvious route out of it.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

or that it even started at all? How do you think one sex managed to become the dominant one? Because they weren’t wearing dresses?

Some hilarious genderist logic.

Making the point that when women started being relegated to second class sex, ‘gender’ wasn’t a thing, it was purely as a result of women being the childbearing sex. Saying women have been oppressed due to ‘gender’ is a falsehood.

@Gerla

*Otherwise they are suffering worse prospects because they are perceived as gender non conforming men.

This may mean that they suffer greatly, but it is because it is assumed that they are male, not female.*

This needs to be stated again and again. Discrimination of TW is NOT because of biological sex. I asked earlier what I had in common with a TW and was told that we were basically the same. Let's take a concrete example. I teach and since I have been on maternity leave (now back at work) my career has stagnated. I earn far less than my husband. I cannot move to a different town to work which would be good for my career because I have caring responsibilities here. I have had to overcome medical issues related to childbirth. All of these are directly or indirecty related to my sex. (And I am only talking really about how sex affects my career not everything else). My trans student (who is lovely btw - I am not blaming them for this) will probably never have to face these problems. Up until a couple of years ago, they identified as male. Career-wise, they will not have any of the problems or obstacles that I have faced EVER. I am not saying that they won't have their own battles but they are not in anyway similar to mine - why should we be in the same category?

Some women don't have children so won't necessarily suffer the problems you have experienced that are directly related to you having children. They are still women though.

@gardenbird48

Transgender people suffer sexism because of their gender, and transphobia because they are transgender, especially if they don't pass. This is basic intersectionality.

if they don't pass, how are they going to be subjected to sexism (unless of course we are talking about transmen in which case I agree that intersectionality plays a part - they suffer both for being female and trans).

The vast majority of mtf trans people don't pass. They are not able to fully conceal their trans identity from employers unless they have a GRC which is approx. 5000 people. I would be very surprised if any employers were so blatantly sexist that they openly treated a tw as badly as they treat some women just because they perceived them to be female.

Most of the discrimination experienced by women (apart from the obvious getting sacked when pregnant etc) is structural and involves work conditions that indirectly discriminate against women because they are responsible for childcare etc. Tw are just extremely unlikely, if ever to get caught up in that situation.

And if they do, and they don't like it then they have a very obvious route out of it.

"The vast majority of mtf trans people don't pass."

How would you know that, given that when you can't tell, you don't know that you can't tell?

How would you know that, given that when you can't tell, you don't know that you can't tell?

Well, we'll find out from the census.

How would you know that, given that when you can't tell, you don't know that you can't tell?

True, but then the majority wouldn’t be suffering discrimination because they are trans.

The vast majority of mtf trans people don't pass.

Actually, I can see one pretty good piece of statistical evidence for that.

Criminal reporting.

The vast majority of "women" you see in crime reports for sex offenses are non-passing MtF. Not either women or passing MtF.

If any significant number of MtF people passed, we'd see more people that looked like women in those reports.

Some women don't have children so won't necessarily suffer the problems you have experienced that are directly related to you having children. They are still women though.

As previously stated most women - over 80% - do have children, and of those that don’t very few wouldn’t be impacted by the need for birth control or female specific fertility treatment.

Perhaps if a woman who didn’t want children were living on an island with no men, none of this would have any impact. I don’t think many women are in that situation.

Some women don't have children so won't necessarily suffer the problems you have experienced that are directly related to you having children. They are still women though.

Adding to what Merrymouse has said, even women who don't have children may experience discrimination. Lots of women are passed over for promotion in case they get pregnant. In any case, all my points are strictly related to sex (not gender) discrimination. My TW student has completely different needs and experiences so I'll ask you again @Shizuku - what do we have in common?

If any significant number of MtF people passed, we'd see more people that looked like women in those reports.

Yes, and across social media more generally, it would have to mean that most people who pass don't admit they are trans. I think that ship has sailed.

A vanishingly small number of prominent MTF personalities could pass as female, and even then most only on film.