Is there any such thing as gender identity?

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Here is an article by Alex Byrne, Professor of Philosophy at MIT:
What is gender identity?

Byrne concludes, in part, as follows:
' If there is some kind of “gender identity” that is universal in humans, and which causes dysphoria when mismatched with sex, it remains elusive. No one has yet found a way of detecting its presence, and verifying that it is causally responsible for dysphoria .'

In fact, it seems, there just is no such thing as gender identity in the way trans ideologues intend. Some, noticing lack of anything like it in themselves, nevertheless allow that others may nevertheless suffer from its presence. I think this mistaken, factually and strategically.

The existence of gender identity is foundational for much trans ideology. Its importance can be deduced from its inclusion in Humpty Dumpty’s Stonewall's glossary entry on transphobia, 'including denying ... gender identity ', as part of orthodox trans dogma.

The foundations of trans ideology are built on the quicksand of gender identity. Pointing out the shaky nature of these foundations cannot but assist in demolishing the whole edifice of this ideology before it does any more harm to women, children, and wider society in general.

Of course those who believe in gender identity should not be discriminated against or disadvantaged in any way because of such belief, any more than should believers in guardian angels or invisible human auras. It does not follow that such beliefs themselves should be given any credence. Nor, a fortiori , does it follow that social policy or law should be based on any such beliefs.

There is no such thing as gender identity.

Or, perhaps science progresses is there now some way of detecting its presence, contrary to Alex Byrne's assertion?

@MinnieMous3

Why not refute the point *@Shizuku* rather than deleting? If it’s so wrong?

I agree - I'm genuinely struggling with how transgenderism isn't ultimately to do with sexism.

Now it could be to do with the underlying sexism of society in general: males who are not comfortable with conforming to the accepted dress and behaviour of their male peers wish to present and be treated as female. Or it could be that they genuinely believe they are female because they are drawn to certain behaviours and activities which are typically associated with girls and women.

Alternatively, the latest hypothesis is that the gender identity comes first and the gender expression comes later. Your identity is female, despite being male-bodied, and so you identify with your peers by adhering to the same gendered behaviour that they do.

But this doesn't get to the heart of gender identity. What is that?

I suppose I just have no concept of what a gender identity is and how it is different from dress and behaviour. And this comes back to sexist notions as to how men and women are supposed to behave.

I recognise that some people may take offence at this, but I would prefer to see the point debated rather than shut down.

How would you determine if someone thinks they are trans but are not in fact trans?

Where I live there is a tw who I occasionally see around. This person is about 60 and always dresses in mini skirts and low cut tops (which displays an impressively hairy chest) and super high heels - and a beard. I would like to know how this person is discriminated against due to being perceived as a woman?? And what we have in common. Thanks.

I read somewhere that in Japan, people are only defined as transgender if they’ve had full genital surgery - so presumably not people who just identify as a different gender all or some of the time but haven’t made any changes to their body.

Is that correct, Shizuku? Are you just talking about the relatively few people who’ve had surgery, or about anyone who identifies as trans regardless of their physical condition?

A LOT of trans women transition in later life and don't pass at all. Why do you think they are subject to sex discrimination

Yes, In Britain, apart from the huge increase in young women transitioning, it is middle aged men, who most often have spent their lives cross dressing, who seem the largest demographic.

I see increasing numbers of this demographic around and about. The presentations are often highly stylised and sexualised.

@Helleofabore

How do you know you know, given that if you didn't know, you wouldn't know you didn't know?

many things give transwomen away. I have poor enough vision that I look at many other cues other than clothes/make up/ etc. I am rarely wrong. Proportions of body parts and facial structure and gait (even in heels) are an immediate cue for me. It helps not seeing the distraction of deliberate cues.

I see it, but don't give any reaction unless I need to. And I am sure that many other women have found similar.

"many things give transwomen away"

Except in the cases where nothing gives them away so you didn't realise they were trans.

Bit of a loop here isn't there. How do you know you can always tell given that you wouldn't know if you couldn't tell?

@Gerla

Right, and passing trans women are passed over on the assumption that they too may get pregnant.

This just doesn't happen. There are not loads of trans women who pass. There really aren't. In any case, you seem so hung up on the idea of young trans women that "pass". A LOT of trans women transition in later life and don't pass at all. Why do you think they are subject to sex discrimination?

"There are not loads of trans women who pass."

How do you know? How could you know?

How do you know?

Several ways. I live in a country where you cannot easily change your name/sex on documents. It's just not possible for many years. I have had (over a long career) contact with thousands of young adults. I can see which ones are presenting in a different sex. I have never been surprised.

Secondly, you have ignored the fact that in Europe at least, the majority of TW transition in middle age - so they are not and they are never going to be able to pass. You continually hold up the example of very young TW who "pass". This tells me that you probably have very little real life experience in this field. Yes, online you may see these people and think they look feminine - this really happens in real life. So again - what do I have in common with a 60 year old TW who transitioned a decade ago, has a beard and a male physique and spent the majority of their life as a man? Because this is my reality.

*rarely happens in real life

And please, answer the question rather than just clipping out one sentence. It's getting rather tiresome.

How do we know there are not lots of transwomen who pass?

Here's a survey open to heterosexual males and lesbian females ( tautology I know )

Have you ever been surprised at the genitals a sexual partner possessed?

Obviously if there are lots of passing TW, this would happen

And another survey, open to all. Have you ever met IRL a transwoman who you didn't at the time realise was?

Again , this should happen if there are plenty of passing

Another survey, given the percentage of TW that are believed to exist, do you believe you know personally a proportionate number or do you think that there must be plenty who pass ?

Have you ever met IRL a transwoman who you didn't at the time realise was?

Yes, and it was just by chance I found out.

I think there could be plenty who pass. You only notice the ones that don't because they stand out.

I have met a trans man who passed but not vice versa - at least not in real life, online yes. I do think it is possible but I don't think most TW pass and so it is ridiculous to claim that all TW are discriminated against because of sexism against women.

Except in the cases where nothing gives them away so you didn't realise they were trans.

Except that you seem to believe that people’s bodies become female.

And no. The pelvic structure of a male means that gait is just one thing males cannot emulate. And other body part proportions. Or are you referring to a person who had their puberty blocked as a child and put onto cross sex hormones. And how many of these males are in the UK exactly? And what age would they be now?

Compare this to the overwhelming number of male transitioners who have had virilised puberty, why do you insist on stating we will have not noticed?

I think the odds are quite against you on this point. But happy to keep going around in the circle.

IMO, it takes a lot of surgery for an adult-transitioning TW to truly pass. The example upthread of Nadia from Big Brother - Nadia looks like a woman who has had a lot of plastic surgery.

There's also a difference, IMO, between passing during a brief interaction and continuing to pass over a period of time. There's lots of sutble differences between the way men and women interact with the world, some biology based and some due to socialisation.

Anyway, regarding gender identity, I will say what I've said many times before - I do not understand what it means to 'feel like' or 'identify as' a woman in any way that is not directly linked to my biology. It is not something I have ever experienced, and if pushed, I would say that if I had to 'identify' with a gender role I'd say I have a more masculine personality but that's only because a sexist society has deemed certain things feminine and certain things masculine and I have a range of interests that fall at different points on this scale of bullshit and I don't feel that any of them have anything to do with my sex just because other people seem to have decided they do.

So if someone can explain what it means to 'identify as' or 'feel like' a woman in a way that is NOT directly linked to biological sex, I honestly feel it would help clarify things.

Bit of a loop here isn't there. How do you know you can always tell given that you wouldn't know if you couldn't tell

The simple fact is that you can tell 99.9% of the time. The 'clues' range from the very subtle to the none too subtle at all. Human beings, and creatures, have well habituated sensors and instincts for these things. And women, especially.

Young transmen can sometimes get away with it because they can look very androgynous...but even then there is often a lack of congruence in visual and sensual perception.

Apart from the height, gait, voice, Adam's apple, hands and so on...facial construction is different in males and females.

Voice and movement training can only get you so far. It only takes a momentary lapse of concentration to allow the mask to slip and the old habits re-assert themselves. I've observed this quite often.

And no. The pelvic structure of a male means that gait is just one thing males cannot emulate. And other body part proportions. Or are you referring to a person who had their puberty blocked as a child and put onto cross sex hormones. And how many of these males are in the UK exactly? And what age would they be now

Abigail Shrier suggest that the last people to desist will be the parents and the professionals who enabled young children to transition using puberty blockers, then cross sex hormones and surgery. The desire to defend the practice and their involvement in it would be fierce.

It does seem that a coupe of our U.S based posters are overly concerned with transitioning children.It really isn't that big a thing here.......apart from the large numbers of young women/lesbians.

Because of this focus the largest demographic of middle aged men is ignored; and it seems conveniently so.....because it is here that the totally incongruity is most evident.

And strangely, the more people communicate, the more likely their sex is going to be accurately conveyed.

Even written communication.

@Shizuku

Some people are unable to feel pain (congenital analgesia).

If you told someone with congenital analgesia that you were in pain and they said they would only give you pain killers if you could prove it, how would you prove it?

I can not feel air temperature. I literally missed the last heat wave, lol.

So I have to rely on others to tell me if I need a coat or to take my coat off.

In your example. That I should be allowed to prevent my children from wearing coats in winter unless they convince me that cold exists, as I can't feel it!

Well, it is clearly a ludicrous argument, isn't it.

The person who feels differently to the other 99% of the population, has to be the one to listen to the majority.

So when my kid wandered past just now and told me the living room was too cold with the door that I had opened for some fresh air. I closed the door. As I trust that even at 10yo she knows what the air temperature is and I don't.

Likewise someone who can't feel pain, should be guided by the 99% of the population who do feel pain.

Likewise our laws and culture should be set up in a way that protects the majority of the population and that is with single sex spaces.

The 1% of the population who don't believe that sex matters should listen to the 99% who know that sex matters *.

*Before anyone queries this point. Until the day that boys are targets equally as girls
...

...
To be sexually abused, trafficked for prostitution, providing their bodies as hosts to carry babies in surrogacy arrangements, married to old men as young girls, aborted in equal numbers after sex scans have been performed etc etc etc. Then I will believe people don't see the differences in the sexes. But people do see a difference, that is why they support mens rights to womens spaces over womens rights. As men's feelings matter more than women's safety.

If men genuinely thought these people were female, they would be ignored.

Hi everyone- some of you may be interested in Bristol Education Research Group- we have been looking at the impact on young people in schools of gender identity ideology- and particularly young girls and lesbians. We publish letters we have written to Bristol City Council and schools on our blog, and you will find useful links there to other critical feminist websites that set out evidence based concerns about breach of safeguarding and equality law by Stonewall and affiliated groups. We also set out how we can help any parent or career raise their concerns in their child's school.
bergbristol.wordpress.com/blog/