Is there any such thing as gender identity?

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Here is an article by Alex Byrne, Professor of Philosophy at MIT:
What is gender identity?

Byrne concludes, in part, as follows:
' If there is some kind of “gender identity” that is universal in humans, and which causes dysphoria when mismatched with sex, it remains elusive. No one has yet found a way of detecting its presence, and verifying that it is causally responsible for dysphoria .'

In fact, it seems, there just is no such thing as gender identity in the way trans ideologues intend. Some, noticing lack of anything like it in themselves, nevertheless allow that others may nevertheless suffer from its presence. I think this mistaken, factually and strategically.

The existence of gender identity is foundational for much trans ideology. Its importance can be deduced from its inclusion in Humpty Dumpty’s Stonewall's glossary entry on transphobia, 'including denying ... gender identity ', as part of orthodox trans dogma.

The foundations of trans ideology are built on the quicksand of gender identity. Pointing out the shaky nature of these foundations cannot but assist in demolishing the whole edifice of this ideology before it does any more harm to women, children, and wider society in general.

Of course those who believe in gender identity should not be discriminated against or disadvantaged in any way because of such belief, any more than should believers in guardian angels or invisible human auras. It does not follow that such beliefs themselves should be given any credence. Nor, a fortiori , does it follow that social policy or law should be based on any such beliefs.

There is no such thing as gender identity.

Or, perhaps science progresses is there now some way of detecting its presence, contrary to Alex Byrne's assertion?

I personally think that trans people probably are really sexist which is why they feel such strong gender affinities. It’s no accident that the Asian and Middle Eastern countries where transitioning is considered ok (and even encouraged instead of homosexuality) tend to be among the worst when it comes to women’s rights.

Re: passing -

Nadia Almada easily passed as a biological woman on Big Brother UK back in the mid-noughties.

However, Nadia was identified as a mtf transitioner quite quickly on Big Brother Australia.

It really is difficult to pass 100% of the time. Of course, that's not to say it doesn't happen.

"The vast majority of mtf trans people don't pass."

How would you know that, given that when you can't tell, you don't know that you can't tell?

Given that the vast majority in the UK don't have a medical transition, I very much doubt that. Maybe that is different in Osaka (Shiz has said that's where they live)?

Also given that that Alex Drummond is representative of quite a few that don't even want to 'pass'. They wear a full beard and promote themselves on that basis.

Even those with lots of surgery most mtf give away subtle tells that women pick up on - men don't seem quite so perceptive.

Even those with lots of surgery most mtf give away subtle tells that women pick up on - men don't seem quite so perceptive.

The body shapes are a dead giveaway. Wider shoulders, bigger hands, Adam’s apple, no hips & closely set legs with bigger calf muscles.

There’s not much you can really do about all that.

@NecessaryScene1

The vast majority of mtf trans people don't pass.

Actually, I can see one pretty good piece of statistical evidence for that.

Criminal reporting.

The vast majority of "women" you see in crime reports for sex offenses are non-passing MtF. Not either women or passing MtF.

If any significant number of MtF people passed, we'd see more people that looked like women in those reports.

Show me some stats.

@MinnieMous3

Even those with lots of surgery most mtf give away subtle tells that women pick up on - men don't seem quite so perceptive.

The body shapes are a dead giveaway. Wider shoulders, bigger hands, Adam’s apple, no hips & closely set legs with bigger calf muscles.

There’s not much you can really do about all that.

Again, how do you know you can tell, given that when you can't tell, you don't know that you can't tell?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

A vanishingly small number of prominent MTF personalities could pass as female, and even then most only on film.

Passing trans people who out themselves publicly are vanishingly rare. Trans people who pass generally keep very quiet about being trans. You are interacting with them without knowing it, and they are never going to tell you.

@GrumpyHoonMain

I personally think that trans people probably are really sexist which is why they feel such strong gender affinities. It’s no accident that the Asian and Middle Eastern countries where transitioning is considered ok (and even encouraged instead of homosexuality) tend to be among the worst when it comes to women’s rights.

That is transphobia right there. I assume it will be deleted, if not, I will report it.

@Shizuku

But we still know, we are just polite enough not to point it out.

Why not refute the point @Shizuku rather than deleting? If it’s so wrong?

@Gerla

Some women don't have children so won't necessarily suffer the problems you have experienced that are directly related to you having children. They are still women though.

Adding to what Merrymouse has said, even women who don't have children may experience discrimination. Lots of women are passed over for promotion in case they get pregnant. In any case, all my points are strictly related to sex (not gender) discrimination. My TW student has completely different needs and experiences so I'll ask you again @Shizuku - what do we have in common?

"even women who don't have children may experience discrimination. Lots of women are passed over for promotion in case they get pregnant."

Right, and passing trans women are passed over on the assumption that they too may get pregnant.

Passing trans people who out themselves publicly are vanishingly rare.

Yes I'm sure many prominent female actors are secretly male.

[quote MinnieMous3]@Shizuku

But we still know, we are just polite enough not to point it out.[/quote]
How do you know you know, given that if you didn't know, you wouldn't know you didn't know?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Passing trans people who out themselves publicly are vanishingly rare.

Yes I'm sure many prominent female actors are secretly male.

You know most people aren't prominent actors right?

I'm sorry I simply don't believe that there are all these indistinguishable passing MTF trans people. I've never seen any evidence of it. Quite a few on social media who appear to believe they pass and clearly do not, and are fawned over, but that is not the same.

The mask slips for a moment and what you see is pure misogyny

Certainly if misogyny is not recognising the full humanity of women and the facts of their existence as women; nor in having any sympathy for that.

It also is suggestive of a view in which women are reduced to ( without the deeper appreciation of what, exactly, female biology implies) superficial presentations of femininity

Oh, so none of these passing MTF trans people are in the public eye? And all the MTF trans people who are are very obviously clockable? Good to know.

Do people only go into acting as trans people if they don't pass?

Transgender people suffer sexism because of their gender, and transphobia because they are transgender, especially if they don't pass. This is basic intersectionality

Sexism is discrimination of the basis of one's sex.

You see what happens when you conflate gender with sex?

It's amazing how there is so much transphobia when most MTF trans people can pass as female.

There is a great article which examines GC claims that they have no gender identity, in particular the claim "I have no gender identity, but I am a woman." I think all GC feminists will find it useful

A woman is an adult human female. Nothing to do with gender presentations or identities.

Being a woman is not an identity, it is just a biological fact.

I mean, are we actually saying that the majority of trans people don't suffer transphobia, because no one knows they are trans?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I'm sorry I simply don't believe that there are all these indistinguishable passing MTF trans people. I've never seen any evidence of it. Quite a few on social media who appear to believe they pass and clearly do not, and are fawned over, but that is not the same.

Perhaps this will help:

katymontgomerie.medium.com/no-you-cant-always-tell-a5967cc55761

Byrne is a philosopher who doesn't believe we have privileged access to our own experience. If someone says they are in pain, we believe their subjective experience

That is a contradictory.

If we "don't have privileged access to our own experience", why on earth should other people accept what you say?

@Justhadathought

There is a great article which examines GC claims that they have no gender identity, in particular the claim "I have no gender identity, but I am a woman." I think all GC feminists will find it useful

A woman is an adult human female. Nothing to do with gender presentations or identities.

Being a woman is not an identity, it is just a biological fact.

It always goes back to the basics doesn’t it.

Sometimes I wonder that in by debating crime statistics, pronouns etc, we are giving the whole issue way more attention than it deserves given it can’t get off the ground to start with.

Maybe we should do a grey rock, # nodebate type approach? A blanket response such as ‘A woman is a biological female’?