What's it really like for girls when one of their classmates is trans? A short film.

[Shizuku]

How are you measuring this vulnerability and can you show any evidence that trans girls are the most vulnerable? You're just making assertions without backing them up.

Most gyms have communal changing rooms without cubicles. Even more so the case at schools. It's not feasible to have it any other way.

Why does a trans girl's MH trump that of all the females?

@WoolOfBat

The OP has said that a penis and a clitoris are the same and almost the same size ?

Wow

I don’t know where to start with that. I am now getting slightly less hopeful in regards to getting an eloquent answer to how IVF works if you haven’t gone through puberty which I was looking forward to.... and to getting a link to the detransitioning study the OP referred to (just to check that it isn’t the best me which the authors later corrected).

I might give up on the OP educating me....

"The OP has said that a penis and a clitoris are the same and almost the same size shockshockshock?"

No, but it's quite interesting to see how the idea I said that is spreading among you. Scroll up and see what I wrote, and for ease, let me explain again.

The point being made was about trans girls being extremely self conscious about their genitals and therefore likely to do everything possible to ensure that absolutely no-one saw what she had. An analogy was made with a girl who has a highly virilised for of CAH which can actually involve a full penile urethra:

www.glowm.com/section-view/heading/Congenital%20Adrenal%20Hyperplasia:%20Female%20Pseudohermaphroditism%20and%20Virilization/item/347#

The point being that both the CAH girl and the trans girl are likely to be highly self-conscious about their genitals and are highly unlikely to be wandering around a communal changing area with everything on show.

As an aside, as you are keen to defer to intersex people on these matters, you might find this article interesting:

intersexroadshow.blogspot.com/2011/01/phalloclitoris-anatomy-and-ideology.html

No, it's not conclusive, but the science is all pointing in one direction.

No. As has been demonstrated on multiple threads by discussion of the science.

That's why you see such clear connections between pronoun use and mental health:

www.thetrevorproject.org/survey-2020/?section=Supporting-Transgender-Nonbinary-Youth

The deficiencies of that conclusion have already been pointed out to you.

www.researchgate.net/publication/288633039_Phantom_penises_in_transsexuals_Evidence_of_an_innate_gender-specific_body_image_in_the_brain

Here is the abstract to that paper:

How the brain constructs one's inner sense of gender identity is poorly understood. On the other hand, the phenomenon of phantom sensations -the feeling of still having a body-part after amputation -has been much studied. Around 60% of men experience a phantom penis post-penectomy. As transsexuals report a mismatch between their inner gender identity and that of their body, we wondered what could be learnt from this regarding innate gender-specific body image. We surveyed male-to-female transsexuals regarding the incidence of phantoms post-gender reassignment surgery. Additionally, we asked female-to-male transsexuals if they had ever had the sensation of having a penis when there was not one physically there. In post-operative male-to-female transsexuals the incidence of phantom penises was significantly reduced at 30%. Remarkably, over 60% of female-to-male transsexuals also reported phantom penises. We explain the absence/presence of phantoms here by postulating a mismatch between the brain's hardwired gender-specific body image and the external somatic gender. Further studies along these lines may provide penetrating insights into the question of how nature and nurture interact to produce our brain-based body image.

This is, quite frankly, the biggest load of nonsense I've read in a long time. You can't conclude anything about how the brain is wired from a questionnaire about phantom sensory experiences (which I suspect would be better classed as wishful thinking).

I've met the first author of that paper in a professional context. he is rather well-known for producing this sort of stuff.

@bluebluezoo

The physical component, apart from the biological elements and genetics that cause the condition and that have already been covered, is the feeling that certain body parts don't belong to you or are missing. Again, science has started to look into this

Why is it then, when it’s any part that isn’t genitals, people are referred for counselling and undergo psychotherapy.

This Dysphoria can also apply to arms, legs, any body part.

We don’t allow healthy people to chop off healthy arms because of some internal feeling that it doesn’t belong to them.

So why, when it’s genitals or breasts, are people arguing to go straight to removal and physical treatment first? What makes genitals different to other body parts that one is seen as a mental health issue, the other is validation of that internal feeling?

Why aren’t we treating all body dysphorias the same, with the same standard of care. Treating the brain first and foremost, not the physical body.

We treat things according to what works, but seeing to be disabled is an entirely different condition. As I said - trans people don't see dysfunction, they seek full and normal functionality.

That's why psychologists don't equate the 2 conditions. Similarly, they don't equate being trans with anorexia - a trans person has no delusions about how their body is - that's why medical transition is a thing.

Indeed, and the most vulnerable individuals in this scenario are the trans girls.

In what sense?

a trans person has no delusions about how their body is

Eh???

My mental health as a girl would have definitely been suboptimal if I had been forced to expose my body in front of males, and have them expose their bodies in front of me. Because that's a violation which may meet the definition of sexual harassment under the EA.

Let me tell you something, OP. All teenage girls are reluctant to show their bodies in school changing rooms. No one wants their fanny on display. No one that age prances around naked. It's a horrible experience for everyone.

Forcing a trans girl to stop using any and all facilities used by other girls is an act of psychological torture being perpetrated on a child who is probably already dealing with various mental health problems.

What about the girls who don't want to get changed in front of a biological male? What about their rights?

@Doyoumind

Let me tell you something, OP. All teenage girls are reluctant to show their bodies in school changing rooms. No one wants their fanny on display. No one that age prances around naked. It's a horrible experience for everyone.

I agree. Imagine how much worse it is for girls whose genitals are way outside the norm.

I see. We are back to discussing the male perspective again. It does seem to always be about what is good for male people.

Hard to miss it.

I agree. Imagine how much worse it is for girls whose genitals are way outside the norm

Because they are boys with male genitals.

God almighty this is just never ending.

A penis isn't outside the norm when it comes to vulvas. It's the complete opposite and shouldn't be in the same room.

I agree. Imagine how much worse it is for girls whose genitals are way outside the norm.

A penis and testicles are not and will never be female genitalia.

@Helleofabore

I see. We are back to discussing the male perspective again. It does seem to always be about what is good for male people.

Hard to miss it.

You know trans boys exist, right? I mean they are quite a popular topic of conversation on these boards.

The point being that both the CAH girl and the trans girl are likely to be highly self-conscious about their genitals and are highly unlikely to be wandering around a communal changing area with everything on show.

Point repeated yet again with no attempt, yet again, to address the fact that one is female and one ISN'T.

This is extraordinarily tedious. You have to wonder what op thinks they're achieving here.

They are males. That's exactly and by definition what they are. You aren't ever going to convince people that day is night.

Do you see a pattern here? It doesn't matter what science anyone produces, it will all be dismissed unless it supports the GC position.

Nope. I've pointed out strengths in the papers you've linked to, where strengths have existed. If you link to some decent evidence, I'll happily acknowledge that. Most of the time the problem isn't the data - it's the conclusions you're trying to draw from the data that aren't valid. It's not the fault of other posters that you can't find evidence that is robust enough to actually support your conclusions.

A trans boy would have the same genitals as all the other females. Not sure what OP is talking about.

Funnily enough, I'm pretty sure if I accused someone of being in a science-denying cult, my post would be deleted.

Hey ho. Fortunately I'm making no such accusation.

It is completely normal to have a penis and testicles. About half the population have them.