What's it really like for girls when one of their classmates is trans? A short film.

[Shizuku]

I turned it off when the boy said "So who could object? Perhaps some younger girl, but what could she do? Nothing".

Because that is the whole problem - boys and men have decided that they can do what they like and steamroll into girls and women's spaces with no regard whatsoever to whether girls and women don't feel safe or want them there.

Why do girls and women get no say? Why are girls and women considered transphobic if they object? Why aren't men and boys considered transphobic if they object to a boy or man dressed in girls or women's clothes going into boys and men's spaces?

(Just another lurker butting in to say to everyone presenting such sensible - and apparently unanswerable - arguments. Threads like this helped me immensely when I first encountered these ideas. It's hard work but it's worth it.)

"There is no way she is getting naked in a shower with other girls. Have you any idea how desperately self conscious about their bodies trans girls are?"

Have you any idea how desperately self conscious all girls are about their bodies? And how they definitely don't want to be naked in front of a teenage boy?

@MaudTheInvincible

I'd like to express my admiration for you women who tirelessly and patiently take the time and trouble to dissect and analyse the types of arguments and claims made by the OP. There have, as always, been many excellent and insightful posts, so thank you

Agreed - the patience sometimes astonishes me.

gender identity only exists where there is a biological thing that causes gender dysphoria.

This sounds reasonable to me. The trouble is that so many are now trying to say that dysphoria doesn't come into it. That we are all born with these mysterious and arbitrary 'gender identities' that sometimes match our sex and sometimes don't, and if they don't , we need to try and change our sex to suit this mysterious inner sense.

Most people don't have this 'inner sense' of their own sex, so there is nothing to match or not-match. Most people also understand very well that it's a physical impossibility to change sex, as noted by Scott Newgent above.

Honestly, OP, I think people struggling with gender dysphoria are being done an enormous (catastrophic, sometimes) disservice by being sold this narrative that one can change one's sex to solve dysphoria. I think the whole medical establishment is now approaching it from an incomprehensible and irrational standpoint. I think lives are being damaged and harmed, and I am not convinced that children who are put on a 'trans' affirming path are going to be better for it in the long run. We know all the physical issues they are likely to face; we know a little bit from detransitioners of the mental issues that sadly are often not solved by medication/surgery. Not at all.

I would advocate for better care for anyone suffering dysphoria - I think our mental health treatment is shabby to non-existent here in the UK (don't know about other countries).

All children should be supported to live happy, healthy, fulfilled lives. They should never be made to feel that there's anything wrong with their healthy body. They should never be told that they are playing with the 'wrong' toys or wearing the 'wrong' clothes. They should absolutley never be told they are in the 'wrong' body - it's an abhorrent thing to tell a child, implicitly or explicitly.

We should do better.

@AtTheDickensDesk

(Just another lurker butting in to say to everyone presenting such sensible - and apparently unanswerable - arguments. Threads like this helped me immensely when I first encountered these ideas. It's hard work but it's worth it.)

Thanks AtTheDickensDesk. It helps to know just how these threads are being interpreted by readers who have not posted before.

Hopefully, though, you will start posting more when you feel you can.

@Deliriumoftheendless

that will in many cases leave her visibly trans which means she will be singled out for discrimination and abuse for the rest of her life And yet there is no urge to combat real transphobia, no push for acceptance of trans people as trans people. Why should a “visibly trans” person face this? This is where “it’s just like the attitude to gays and lesbians in the past” comes unstuck, isn’t it? Stonewall wasn’t pushing for gay couples to call themselves flat mates, or siblings and it would be horrible if LGB people felt they couldn’t be open about their sexuality. Over time society has changed, why the assumption trans people cannot be accepted? Because if a TW isn’t fully accepted as a woman and a TM isn’t fully accepted as a man then society is deeply and horribly bigoted? Why? Trans people can and should be accepted as who they are , why is this unpalatable? Why flat out state not believing is phobia or bigotry? And why is this mostly directed at women, even ones who have been very vocal allies?

God, thats a brilliant point.

Why, instead of desperately trying to ensure that a male will 'pass' as a female in future years, is there not apparently effort expended in trying to combat actual transphobia?

It exists, for sure. Although I am starting to wonder if it exists quite as much as the narrative tells us - especially from looking at things like, say, murder stats - a transwoman in the UK is far safer, statistically, than a woman, for example. What if the UK is actually very comfortable and tolerant of gender non-conformity? It has been around rather a long while, as the TRAs are so keen to tell us.

Even if/when TW are violently oppressed, I would bet my house it's not by GC feminists on Mumsnet. Yet this is where the TRAs focus their efforts.

Just with respect to the original film...

Silence
Is
Not
Consent

Can't believe I have to make a point of highlighting that on the women's rights boards, but here we are

I'd like to tell the OP my story. My story of loving being mistaken for a boy when out shopping with my mum around 4 years old. Of just knowing that I didn't want long hair and being really resistant to anything girly like ribbons that I was forced to wear at gymnastics displays. I hated seeing myself in anything 'pretty'. I wanted to wear trousers and ride bikes and climb trees. I knew all this when I was 3/4 years old.

Could this be described as inner male essence? Was I a boy trapped in a girl's body?

Well no, no I wasn't.

I'm now over 40 and desperate to have children. Totally desperate and I'm trying to conceive and it's not happening. I want to be a mum. I still have short hair and wear mostly clothes from the men's department but I still have a fully intact female biology that at least gives me the possibility of doing what feels like such a natural desire to me.

I understand that some people hate their biologically sexed body and want to change it but I can't believe that I'm totally unique either. It's totally possible to be gender non conforming and not be trans. I don't think I've ever felt female. I've certainly never felt what a woman is meant to feel like according to posts like this - no Barbies or running my fingers through blossom or wearing floaty dresses. I just am female and it's ok to express that however I want to.

I'm just so glad that I wasn't bombarded with a whole internet telling me I must be trans for feeling how I did.

@Deliriumoftheendless

that will in many cases leave her visibly trans which means she will be singled out for discrimination and abuse for the rest of her life And yet there is no urge to combat real transphobia, no push for acceptance of trans people as trans people. Why should a “visibly trans” person face this? This is where “it’s just like the attitude to gays and lesbians in the past” comes unstuck, isn’t it? Stonewall wasn’t pushing for gay couples to call themselves flat mates, or siblings and it would be horrible if LGB people felt they couldn’t be open about their sexuality. Over time society has changed, why the assumption trans people cannot be accepted? Because if a TW isn’t fully accepted as a woman and a TM isn’t fully accepted as a man then society is deeply and horribly bigoted? Why? Trans people can and should be accepted as who they are , why is this unpalatable? Why flat out state not believing is phobia or bigotry? And why is this mostly directed at women, even ones who have been very vocal allies?

I think that is such a good point. Combating "transphobia" should be about acceptance of people being trans, not pretending that they are not trans but are actually the opposite sex.

Surely the people that want people to not be "visibly trans" are the ones that are doing the "erasing trans people" so why are we the ones that get accused of it? I'm quite happy for people to be visibly trans.

Thank you Arabella.

I am trying to be educated, but I am still confused.

If a child doesn’t go through puberty (puberty blockers and then cross sex hormones), how can you harvest eggs/sperm?

If boys who “know” that they are girls to every price needs to be saved from male testosterone puberty as it is irreversible, why are girls who “know” they are boys put on it ASAP? Especially given the exponential and unexplained increase in these girls, many on the spectrum? And if there are so many, why is there a lack of a large number of adult women who come out as trans?

Why does OP quite detransitioning rates from a Dutch study (I think) which was corrected by the authors as the actual detransitioning rates were higher?

Also if it is the study I think, there was a massive drop out rate. OP could you post a link to the study so we can check it please?

@Deliriumoftheendless

Because if a TW isn’t fully accepted as a woman and a TM isn’t fully accepted as a man then society is deeply and horribly bigoted? Why? Trans people can and should be accepted as who they are , why is this unpalatable? Why flat out state not believing is phobia or bigotry? And why is this mostly directed at women, even ones who have been very vocal allies?

This is such a fantastic post.

We want to support trans people as they are. We are not willing to say that they are something they aren't.

This makes us bigots apparently.

@GreyhoundG1rl

This is a great thread for the lurkers, I will say that. So true. It educates in a way op never intended.

Some of us are merrily being deleted and banned and coming back for more because of our participation in threads like this.

It's worth it. If enough people are lurking and reading, it's worth the hassle.

@toolatetofixate - agreed. Why this problem with people just being trans - I dont get it either.

"none of them are answered."

None? Not a single one? Are you sure?

The OP has posted this in answer to:

OP has in the past shown us who they are in their posting style, in their persistence in ignoring the many significant issues (many of them safeguarding issues) we bring up to discuss, none of them are answered. Because to do so would show the weaknesses in the propaganda-ish narrative being pushed which ultimately results in a group of people destabilizing science and language for their own purposes. (And many readers will have seen how this played out in France with consent for those who were still children left unprotected by law and lead to believe they had consented to these activities because they had a child’s understanding and trust).

Well. I have gone through all your answers on this thread. They are surprisingly brief, rather glib in places. I was actually pretty surprised when I used the Show All facility to see all OP's posts and only OP's posts. OP, you keep saying you are answering, but I did not see any specific answers to the significant health and safeguarding questions and issues that have been highlighted and asked.

Again, you have distracted and deflected.

Do we need to repost our questions so that you can more easily find them?

Or shall we just assume that 'educate' which was your stated intention at about post 3 or 4, means posting random studies, videos and opinion blogs that may or may not relate to the posts you quote and the points you raise and NOT directly engage and answer the questions on issues raised?

By the way. Looking back through your posts really brought to light who you consider 'opinion leaders'. We keep telling you that some of your 'opinion leaders' have pretty big credibility issues.

I would suggest if you post something more, that you might want to do a check on their past history. Some of it is quite recent too. While you may think (or may not) that sexually harassing a woman on twitter is ok because she seems to deserve it your eyes, it really does imply that that person has a hard to ignore misogyny issue despite my seeing them describe themselves as feminists.

They have also jeered and laughed at the sound women make when going to the toilet .... while telling women that they are powerless to stop them using women's toilets. Kind of like this video quote.

If any of them didn't like it, they were younger, what could they do about it? Nothing and to add there is a laugh that accompanies this gem!

Maybe you could address the common theme between this video and the author of one of your links, Montgomery, on how they treat girls and women.

Do you think that this is acceptable to completely disregard girls and women's concerns, while jeering at their lack of power and their toilet habits? Is this what you consider good activism?

@ArabellaScott

Wow, that's some response, Shizuku. Someone quotes a compassionate and thoughtful idea from a transman on how to help a child with suicidal ideation, and you read that as 'a petulant attempt by an abusive child to manipulate you'? Seriously?

I agree. That was an appalling response from the OP. I’m still relatively new to all of this so not as articulate as others. However OP I’m not sure you have even read the quote. If my child who was not comfortable with their sex was threatening suicide wouldn’t I take them immediately to A&E?

From my own experiences which I've mentioned upthread.

I would guess that there are a few different reasons that different people decide they cannot support the current demands from various trans orgs.

We all know what they all are. Safeguarding, safety, stats, fairness etc.

For me I was ??? when it first started being discussed on here years ago. Because it obviously just didn't make any sense.

And a large part of why it doesn't make any sense, for me, is that I don't have this internal sense. I feel like a person. Not female/ womanly etc. I always have.

According to stonewall this makes me trans, and an awful lot of other people too. Especially a lot of feminists who found feminism young because they felt like people and kept getting treated in all these odd ways because of their sex.

But instead of saying oh that's a good point. We can work together, you are natural allies.

We get TOLD we are cis. Get TOLD we don't get it. Get TOLD we are bigots.

Even though by the terms of the people telling us this, many of us are in fact trans.

So why are female 'agender' people's views rejected, repugnant.

That makes no sense at all.

Unless it's not about being trans at all. It's all about something else.

(I don't ID as trans or agender but according to stonewall etc that's what I am).

Additionally our insights into why pubescent girls might find a non binary identity appealing are discarded as hate. Even though we were once there ourselves...

Also how people feel inside is irrelevant to the reason we have sex segregated stuff (that's because of bodies and behaviour).

So why it's used as a reason for any changes to law or established social norms around sex segregation is beyond me as well.

@JustGotToKeepOnKeepingOn

"There is no way she is getting naked in a shower with other girls. Have you any idea how desperately self conscious about their bodies trans girls are?"

Have you any idea how desperately self conscious all girls are about their bodies? And how they definitely don't want to be naked in front of a teenage boy?

So lets imagine a group of girls - they are all very self conscious of their bodies and anxious about using the showers.

But one has congenital adrenal hyperplasia leading to a virilisation of her genitals and a clitoris which is big enough to look like a small penis.

Is her anxiety about being naked in front of other girls worse or the same as the other girls? What do you think?

Ha! Scraping the barrel there OP.

Did you just compare being a male child to a child with an extremely rare intersex condition? You are really clutching at straws now....

Male children very common. Female children very common. Male children are not female children. For the extremely rare cases of intersex we will all make allowances. But having an unverifiable internal feeling of self is not intersex so no allowances need to be made.

Don't appropriate intersex conditions mate.

A girl with an enlarged clitoris is still a girl though and I imagine she would keep it covered, as would all the other girls. I don't think any child showering after PE takes a great deal of time showering and no time at all looking at the other girls vulvas.

From experience, you get in, splash some water on your shoulders, get out, get dry, get dressed, get to your next class all as quickly as you can and every girl is all as equally uncomfortable about it as the next girl.