What's it really like for girls when one of their classmates is trans? A short film.

[Shizuku]

See this is the kind of thing idiots on Twitter are nodding along with like it’s some amazingly deep insight, unsurprisingly it doesn’t fly here.

Well and all the other differences.

The idea that humans can only tell male female by looking at genitals is really fucking weird.

The practice of trying to justify male inclusion by talking about the bodies of girls who have certain DSDs is appropriaton and frankly a bit creepy.

The idea that women and girls who don't want to be in vulnerable situations with males are bigoted and genitally obsessed is ridiculous.

Etc etc

@Deliriumoftheendless

Now a penis and testicles. Nah, they immediately stand out

Yeah, unless I’m VERY unusual (spoiler- I’m not) a clitoris tends NOT to have a pair of knackers hanging off it.

😂😂😂

The idea that a penis and a clit are essentially the same just with a difference in size is so grossly biologically wonky I don't understand how anyone can say that with a straight face, let alone write it down in places where it will be read by young people...

Really back to the OP though who has indicated that clitorised and penises are really not so different...

a clitoris which is big enough to look like a small penis

Kids, this is your brain on anime.

JUST SAY NO

@NiceGerbil

Really back to the OP though who has indicated that clitorised and penises are really not so different...

Ugh. The OP. Do we have to?

Wouldn't it be more fun to ignore her and have some cake and ice cream instead?

🧁 🍰 🍦

@Deliriumoftheendless

Now a penis and testicles. Nah, they immediately stand out

Yeah, unless I’m VERY unusual (spoiler- I’m not) a clitoris tends NOT to have a pair of knackers hanging off it.

Glad someone pick it up. I was trying for subtle and non deletable.

@MrsWooster

Girls have a right to spaces free from penises. It’s our job as parents to reassure them that their own rights exist and supersede the social conditioning they experience to ‘be kind’. It is also unkind to lie to children: telling a child that they can ‘change sex’ is wrong and telling children that another child has ‘changed sex’ is wrong and telling a child that they should submit to sexist social stereotypes is wrong.

Sums it up.

The practice of trying to justify male inclusion by talking about the bodies of girls who have certain DSDs is appropriaton and frankly a bit creepy.

yes. And they keep repeating that we are 'obsessed' with genitalia.....

The OP has said that a penis and a clitoris are the same and almost the same size ?

Wow

I don’t know where to start with that. I am now getting slightly less hopeful in regards to getting an eloquent answer to how IVF works if you haven’t gone through puberty which I was looking forward to.... and to getting a link to the detransitioning study the OP referred to (just to check that it isn’t the best me which the authors later corrected).

I might give up on the OP educating me....

Sorry side tracked again.

The things that are said are more revealing than the people who say them think.

EG

The penis and the clitoris are basically the same.
This is obvious nonsense. Why would anyone say it?
The only way they are in any way similar is if all you are concerned with is sexual arousal /response

Like when the vagina was given the lovely name front hole.
But from front to back the urethra is the first hole. And more on the front. How did that get overlooked?
Oh yes if you are only counting orifices that can fit a penis inside.
And 'hole' is a term many men like to use. Every hole's a goal etc

And in general sex seems to be a high priority. Who has sex with who, who should have sex with who, etc etc etc. Reams and reams about breasts. And so on. It's a very male view of things.

Can't help but notice that none of the usual TRAs are on this thread. Wonder why they're not trying to help the OP formulate a proper argument. Seems odd.

@adviceseekingnamechanger

Can't help but notice that none of the usual TRAs are on this thread. Wonder why they're not trying to help the OP formulate a proper argument. Seems odd.

They're all the same person.

And if not, they might as well be. Hive mind.

@NiceGerbil

From my own experiences which I've mentioned upthread.

I would guess that there are a few different reasons that different people decide they cannot support the current demands from various trans orgs.

We all know what they all are. Safeguarding, safety, stats, fairness etc.

For me I was ??? when it first started being discussed on here years ago. Because it obviously just didn't make any sense.

And a large part of why it doesn't make any sense, for me, is that I don't have this internal sense. I feel like a person. Not female/ womanly etc. I always have.

According to stonewall this makes me trans, and an awful lot of other people too. Especially a lot of feminists who found feminism young because they felt like people and kept getting treated in all these odd ways because of their sex.

But instead of saying oh that's a good point. We can work together, you are natural allies.

We get TOLD we are cis. Get TOLD we don't get it. Get TOLD we are bigots.

Even though by the terms of the people telling us this, many of us are in fact trans.

So why are female 'agender' people's views rejected, repugnant.

That makes no sense at all.

Unless it's not about being trans at all. It's all about something else.

(I don't ID as trans or agender but according to stonewall etc that's what I am).

Additionally our insights into why pubescent girls might find a non binary identity appealing are discarded as hate. Even though we were once there ourselves...

Also how people feel inside is irrelevant to the reason we have sex segregated stuff (that's because of bodies and behaviour).

So why it's used as a reason for any changes to law or established social norms around sex segregation is beyond me as well.

👏👏👏

@NecessaryScene1

a clitoris which is big enough to look like a small penis

Kids, this is your brain on anime.

JUST SAY NO

Isn't it

@NecessaryScene1

a clitoris which is big enough to look like a small penis

Kids, this is your brain on anime.

JUST SAY NO

🤣🤣 Do we need Grange Hill to do a Zammo-style public health campaign?

🎶 Don't listen, don’t listen to anyone else, all you gotta do is be yourself 🎶

Also how people feel inside is irrelevant to the reason we have sex segregated stuff (that's because of bodies and behaviour).

So why it's used as a reason for any changes to law or established social norms around sex segregation is beyond me as well.

I was coming on to say pretty much that only in eleventy billion more words, so thank you for that NiceGerbil.

I don’t believe in gender identity as a “thing” but even if any of these papers did actually prove anything, what difference would it make? A man with a feminine gender identity, even if there were some basis in biology for it, would be just that - a man with a feminine gender identity.

Not a woman. Not a female person.

The conceptual space of being female is already occupied. By female people, obviously. Being female is not a state of mind but of material reality.

The measures that have been taken to redress the historic and current socio-political and economic disadvantage suffered by female people, to recognise our greater physical vulnerability, and to afford us a greater degree of safety in the face of endemic male VAWG, are based on the differences in both physiology and socialisation between the sexes.

These differences do not disappear when a male person wishes to “identify as” female. That male person has no more right, morally or logically speaking, to be considered as female than any other male person does. Which is to say, none at all.

So single sex spaces, services and initiatives should remain (or get back to being) what they were always supposed to be: single sex. For the benefit of women.

#notyourservicehumans

Fantastic post, Talking

A girl with a DSD may feel self conscious; therefore, males should be allowed to shower with girls?

This just doesn't make any sense, OP.

The conceptual space of being female is already occupied. By female people, obviously. Being female is not a state of mind but of material reality.

Hear, hear. With that, I am taking my wobbly female body to bed. Goodnight, all.

😘🍷 Eresh

@Deliriumoftheendless

Now a penis and testicles. Nah, they immediately stand out

Yeah, unless I’m VERY unusual (spoiler- I’m not) a clitoris tends NOT to have a pair of knackers hanging off it.

This idea of the penis and the clitoris being the same thing really is beyond even the normal levels of batshit. It’s horrifying to think of organisations going into schools and teaching kids this stuff as if it were real (and being paid for it!). There’s a word I’d use for that but I think it would get me deleted, which, as a person with a keen interest in safeguarding, I find distressing.

And not to derail, but this from that Meg-John page linked above is SO superphobic:

In an ideal world we wouldn’t make any assumptions about what kinds of genitals a partner is going to have, but would focus on finding out what works for them because different people like different kinds of touch in different places.

Really sounds like they’re saying, hetero- and homo-sexuals, your genital preferences are bigoted, transphobic and NOT VALID!

Double standards, much?

(And also a complete non-sequitur. Why would the fact that different people like different kinds of touch be dependent on nobody caring what sex their partners were? Batshit and logically inconsistent. Ah yes. I’ve been here before.)

Derail over.

The whole concept of a feminine gender identity/ lady brain is so regressive.

Women have been fighting the idea that we are, well whatever men wanted us to be at the time, because we were naturally disposed to it.

A disproportionate amount of studies over years and years has sought to prove that the constraints of our sex role were not imposed, but how we naturally were.

If it's not related to body (dysphoria), or how you dress etc (cultural and heavily socialised), and it's not to do with what interests you have (socialised but also in the UK fairly free rein) and it's not to do with behaviour (massively socialised)...

Then what is it to do with? What on earth is left?

That’s the $64,000,000 question, isn’t it, NiceGerbil?

To which no one has yet been able to give a coherent, rational answer.