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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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What's it really like for girls when one of their classmates is trans? A short film.

999 replies

Shizuku · 15/03/2021 18:02

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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Linearpark · 19/03/2021 00:39

I havent RTFT but fgs I have never seen an actual girl behave in that leery way on a bike ride

EdgeOfACoin · 19/03/2021 05:09

@ArabellaScott

A girl with a DSD may feel self conscious; therefore, males should be allowed to shower with girls?

This just doesn't make any sense, OP.

Well, quite.

Similar arguments have been made before, that transgender people would be so uncomfortable at using communal changing areas that they would be unlikely to use them.

So if trans people are uncomfortable with the set-up, why are they fighting for access to single-sex spaces in the first place? Surely third spaces would benefit everyone?

It is utterly illogical.

WarriorN · 19/03/2021 05:32

the clitoris and penis were essentially the same and size wise most people were somewhere in the middle...

It's just occurred to me why Jessica Ann Pinn is getting so much hate from TRAs AND DOCTORS ffs for having the GALL to campaign for better anatomical representation of the clitoris, yes in the 2020's.

The TRAs want to sustain the narrative that women and their body parts are just smaller men. For their own reasons.

The narrative in medical science that's DISADVANTAGED and harmed women in that their medical needs haven't been properly researched.

Invisible women.

The sex health gap.

This is pure misogyny. Miso-gyny.

NO.

Jessica Ann Pin
http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4193296-Jessica-Ann-Pin

EdgeOfACoin · 19/03/2021 05:47

@NiceGerbil

The whole concept of a feminine gender identity/ lady brain is so regressive.

Women have been fighting the idea that we are, well whatever men wanted us to be at the time, because we were naturally disposed to it.

A disproportionate amount of studies over years and years has sought to prove that the constraints of our sex role were not imposed, but how we naturally were.

If it's not related to body (dysphoria), or how you dress etc (cultural and heavily socialised), and it's not to do with what interests you have (socialised but also in the UK fairly free rein) and it's not to do with behaviour (massively socialised)...

Then what is it to do with? What on earth is left?

Many pages ago I asked the OP several times what you would say to a young child who was confused about their gender identity. How would you help them figure it out? The unspoken part of this question was really how do you help them figure it out without reference to gender stereotypes?

The OP didn't answer, just claimed they had already explained what gender identity is and provided a link to something which seemed to conflate gender identity with gendered behaviour.

So in the absence of any clarifying information from the OP or anyone else, here's my take:

If you go back 15 years or so, children were identified as being transgender at a certain age because of their behaviour. If you look at the stories of Jazz Jennings or Jackie Green, for instance, it is clear that clothes and toys were the key reason these kids decided they were girls rather than boys. I have never seen a story of a little transgirl who had all the stereotypical traits of a boy but who decided to transition to being a girl. Nor have I ever seen the story of an 8-year-old girl who likes Barbie, dresses and long hair declaring that she is actually an effeminate boy.

What has changed in recent years is the following:

  1. A greater scrutiny of the idea that liking certain things 'makes' you a boy or a girl
  2. A drastic rise in the number of teenage girls transitioning to boys, despite having perfectly typical upbringing and not suffering any kind of gender dysphoria that was observable in childhood
  3. A growing number of middle-aged mtf transitioners who have lived their whole lives quite happily as men but who transition later in life. For many of these people, autogynaephilia plays a part in their decision to transition.

Therefore, to account for the rise in numbers of these non-traditional transitioners (2) and (3) on the list above, as well as to sidestep criticism for setting young children on a medicalised pathway because they liked the 'wrong' toys or clothes, a new idea is being promoted:

Gender identity is separate from gendered behaviour.

That's why you get 'tomboy transgirls' - it offers a neat explanation for middle-aged transitioners. You aren't medicalising young boys for liking dolls - you are helping young transgirls fulfil their true destiny. The liking of dolls is simply conforming to stereotypes because they want to be like their peers who share their identity. And it neatly glosses over the issue of teenagers who conclude that they are really male, even though they never expressed any discomfort with their sex as children.

The ideology falls down the moment you ask anyone to explain the components of gender identity without reference to clothes or behaviour.

Over and over we have asked, but never get any further than the fact that gender identity is innate, inexplicable and subjective.

WarriorN · 19/03/2021 05:50

Again, inventing transgender children.

So much money to be made...

thirdfiddle · 19/03/2021 08:27

EdgeofaCoin, I think you are spot on there. The narrative has changed even since I started following the discussion, must be less than 5 years.

The diagnostic criteria are rather problematic to the new narrative, for kids they are heavily based on stereotype.

MrsWooster · 19/03/2021 08:36

It’s extremely cheering to see attempts like the op’s to elicit ‘transphobic comments’ being met with endless well-researched, thoughtful, compassionate responses which centre women while remaining aware of and receptive to the needs of people with dysphoria. Brava mumsnetters.

Helleofabore · 19/03/2021 08:52

EdgeOfACoin

Yes. I explained it to someone about 12 months ago in a similar way. Once you watch the reverse ferreting on ‘wrong body’ that happened later last year and the supposed ‘no denial of sex’ (which OP seems to have missed) etc. you cannot miss who seems to driving it still. The very first transitioners.

The current cohort of young female transitioners is doing a great deal of work in getting acceptance for the other groups.

Wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 19/03/2021 08:54

So GC women are being called right-wing, with Posie Parker brought in for emphasis.

It must be a day with a 'y' in it.

Wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 19/03/2021 09:07

Oops, wrong thread!

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 19/03/2021 11:42

I mean, WTF is an “internal sense” of “being” something you’re not?

Shizuku · 19/03/2021 11:51

@MrsWooster

It’s extremely cheering to see attempts like the op’s to elicit ‘transphobic comments’ being met with endless well-researched, thoughtful, compassionate responses which centre women while remaining aware of and receptive to the needs of people with dysphoria. Brava mumsnetters.
I see we've reached the stage where you are trying to paint me as an evil manipulator who is trying to get you to say something you don't want to say, rather than someone who is rather exhaustively trying to explain what being trans is all about.

Yawn.

OP posts:
GreyhoundG1rl · 19/03/2021 11:54

Hardly "exhaustive" when you've chosen to ignore so many, many questions.
The polar opposite of exhaustive, in fact.

WarriorN · 19/03/2021 12:06

Mrs Wooster is saying that women have been exhaustively explaining exactly what being a woman is all about, and what it isn't.

Given we are women, it's a bit rich to ignore us, and tell us we are wrong.

If that bores you, please go somewhere else.

Yawn.

Shizuku · 19/03/2021 12:12

"The ideology falls down the moment you ask anyone to explain the components of gender identity without reference to clothes or behaviour. Over and over we have asked, but never get any further than the fact that gender identity is innate, inexplicable and subjective."

Being trans has a physical component and a social component. The physical component, apart from the biological elements and genetics that cause the condition and that have already been covered, is the feeling that certain body parts don't belong to you or are missing. Again, science has started to look into this:

www.researchgate.net/publication/288633039_Phantom_penises_in_transsexuals_Evidence_of_an_innate_gender-specific_body_image_in_the_brain

www.researchgate.net/publication/288633039_Phantom_penises_in_transsexuals_Evidence_of_an_innate_gender-specific_body_image_in_the_brain

No, it's not conclusive, but the science is all pointing in one direction.

The social component which derives directly from the biological components is the emotional pain of being perceived by others as a different sex to the one you feel yourself to be. This is extremely isolating. It's one of the reason's trans kids are typically very gloomy and withdrawn until affirmed when they come alive and start behaving like any other kid.

Humans are social creatures - how we are perceived by our peers matters hugely to us. That's why you see such clear connections between pronoun use and mental health:

www.thetrevorproject.org/survey-2020/?section=Supporting-Transgender-Nonbinary-Youth

There's no big conspiracy here - there is an aspect oh human psychology called gender identity. We don't know exactly how it develops, but we have some clues. Gender identity typically develops congruently with things like reproductive organs but it can very occasionally develop in the opposite direction. When it develops in the opposite direction, you have a trans person. Typically they experience a state of distress about this incongruence called gender dysphoria.

We know how to fix it. You don't like how we do that, but it works and it not only transforms lives, but in some cases saves lives, and only very occasionally do we get it wrong.

OP posts:
EdgeOfACoin · 19/03/2021 12:19

Shizuku, I accept that you are trying. And I appreciate how hard it is to be the one person making a case when there are so many posters on the other side of the argument.

However, it's not that posters here have never come across arguments before for trans rights. It's not that posters here have never met (or formed a friendship with) a transgender person.

It is that the posters here are not steeped in a world of Twitter and No Debate. There are flaws, inconsistencies and logical problems with the very core of transgender ideology. And it is affecting women's rights. This is what is under discussion. Drop-the-mic points which are effective on Twitter do not wash on here.

continuallyconflating · 19/03/2021 12:22

rather than someone who is rather exhaustively trying to explain what being trans is all about

Well, you've clearly explained that being trans seems to be identifying with outdated gender roles and stereotypes that many woman on this board have spent decades fighting. Long before this latest attempt by male bodied individuals to yet again invade and occupy female spaces.
(including those protected by the "cotton ceiling", rape culture much?)

You've also attempted to explain how these outdated expressions of gender have a basis in biology, and that these can be objectively measured.
But unfortunately, despite years of research, the best that anyone can say is that trans individuals are a unique set.

But all of this is irrelevant.
It's about safeguarding of vulnerable individuals
And the fact that this is even an issue is jaw dropping and baffling

The attitude and behaviour of a subset of trans individuals towards people who disagree, the death threats and exhortations to "choke on my ladydick" is deeply disturbing.
No, it's not all trans people and yes trans people need help, love and support but that fact that some of them show such aggression and seem to have poor impulse control, proves the need for safeguarding

Shizuku · 19/03/2021 12:23

"Similar arguments have been made before, that transgender people would be so uncomfortable at using communal changing areas that they would be unlikely to use them. So if trans people are uncomfortable with the set-up, why are they fighting for access to single-sex spaces in the first place? Surely third spaces would benefit everyone? It is utterly illogical."

It's entirely logical. Let me explain.

Communal changing areas are uncomfortable for lots of people, and particularly for people with physical anomalies like a trans girl or the example given above of a girl with CAH. When there are cubicles available, everyone's fine (see video) but when people are required to get undressed in front of other people, the people with physical anomalies are going to be particularly uncomfortable and are going to try to hide those anomalies.

In summary, a third space or cubicle that allows someone with physical anomalies to change in private is in essence a good thing, although it's better to have cubicles so that everyone can undress in the same way regardless of their issues. Forcing a trans girl to stop using any and all facilities used by other girls is an act of psychological torture being perpetrated on a child who is probably already dealing with various mental health problems.

Imagine how you would have felt if you were the only girl in the school who was not allowed in the girl's toilets because people thought you didn't look right. Imagine the sense of shame and isolation.

OP posts:
2late2fixate · 19/03/2021 12:23

I'm looking forward to this thread filling up.

Shizuku · 19/03/2021 12:24

@continuallyconflating

rather than someone who is rather exhaustively trying to explain what being trans is all about

Well, you've clearly explained that being trans seems to be identifying with outdated gender roles and stereotypes that many woman on this board have spent decades fighting. Long before this latest attempt by male bodied individuals to yet again invade and occupy female spaces.
(including those protected by the "cotton ceiling", rape culture much?)

You've also attempted to explain how these outdated expressions of gender have a basis in biology, and that these can be objectively measured.
But unfortunately, despite years of research, the best that anyone can say is that trans individuals are a unique set.

But all of this is irrelevant.
It's about safeguarding of vulnerable individuals
And the fact that this is even an issue is jaw dropping and baffling

The attitude and behaviour of a subset of trans individuals towards people who disagree, the death threats and exhortations to "choke on my ladydick" is deeply disturbing.
No, it's not all trans people and yes trans people need help, love and support but that fact that some of them show such aggression and seem to have poor impulse control, proves the need for safeguarding

"Well, you've clearly explained that being trans seems to be identifying with outdated gender roles and stereotypes that many woman on this board have spent decades fighting."

See my multiple posts about some trans girls being tomboys.

OP posts:
Shizuku · 19/03/2021 12:25

"It's about safeguarding of vulnerable individuals"

Indeed, and the most vulnerable individuals in this scenario are the trans girls.

OP posts:
bluebluezoo · 19/03/2021 12:27

The physical component, apart from the biological elements and genetics that cause the condition and that have already been covered, is the feeling that certain body parts don't belong to you or are missing. Again, science has started to look into this

Why is it then, when it’s any part that isn’t genitals, people are referred for counselling and undergo psychotherapy.

This Dysphoria can also apply to arms, legs, any body part.

We don’t allow healthy people to chop off healthy arms because of some internal feeling that it doesn’t belong to them.

So why, when it’s genitals or breasts, are people arguing to go straight to removal and physical treatment first? What makes genitals different to other body parts that one is seen as a mental health issue, the other is validation of that internal feeling?

Why aren’t we treating all body dysphorias the same, with the same standard of care. Treating the brain first and foremost, not the physical body.

flyingfoxkins · 19/03/2021 12:30

@continuallyconflating - it was the storm of insults directed towards women who dared to express GC opinions together with the endless repetition of slogans from TRAs that started me off questioning this whole farrago a couple of years back. I`m just seeing more evidence (including on here) all the time which confirms I was right to question it.

ArabellaScott · 19/03/2021 12:30

the most vulnerable individuals in this scenario are the trans girls.

How did you arrive at that conclusion?

Girls are more at risk of pregnancy and more at risk from male bodied people than male bodied people are at risk from females.