Page 3 | What's it really like for girls when one of their classmates is trans? A short film.

Original poster

Shizuku · 15/03/2021 18:26

@everythingthelighttouches

What about girls that don’t play with barbies??

How do we know they are girls if they don’t play with barbies OP??

You mean like the trans girls who are tomboys?

www.newsweek.com/transgender-kids-living-identity-develop-cis-children-1471729

What's it really like for girls when one of their classmates is trans? A short film.

OP posts:

334bu · 15/03/2021 18:26

None of the girls are asked any questions about this. All we see are a group of children who have known one another since they were small children playing.

MarkRuffaloCrumble · 15/03/2021 18:26

Watch how the other children interact with her. Do they seem traumatised? Terrified? Or is it just young children playing together like young children do?

Fixed that for you.

It may amaze you to realise, as you seem deluded about what feminists believe, but we’ve all been pushing for kids to be able to play together wi to whatever toys they enjoy for donkeys years! Let Toys Be Toys, for example, Pink Stinks, campaigns to highlight how much influence the choice of toys that adults provide and encourage can have over the way a child views themselves.

TRAs are literally adopting the exact same arguments that feminists have been spouting for decades - except the feminist answer is that ALL children should be able to play with all toys and wear all clothes. TRAs suggestion is that if a child likes to play with girls and so called girls toys they must be a girl and be put on a pathway to lifelong medication, sterilisation and surgery.

Wonder which of those approaches will be seen to be on the “right side of history” in future

StillWeRise · 15/03/2021 18:27

this isn't a documentary though, is it?
it comes across as scripted or at least shaped, I'm not sure I beleive what it says its showing but if it is-
poor kid
at the end when they ask about the future and having children, you can very clearly see (if its true) the naive wishful thinking typical of pre pubertal children. If that child is born male yes they pass because of no puberty. But then how will they ever grow up.
And of course we didn't really hear from the other girls at all.
Although we did hear 'well, what can the younger ones say after all...'

Original poster

Shizuku · 15/03/2021 18:27

@334bu

None of the girls are asked any questions about this. All we see are a group of children who have known one another since they were small children playing.

Isn't it lovely - a trans girl just being one of the girls and everyone getting along fine.

OP posts:

everythingthelighttouches · 15/03/2021 18:27

OP can you explain a little more about the difference between gendered behaviour and gendered identity in children of the age that play with Barbies??

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 15/03/2021 18:27

Gendered behaviour and gender identity are 2 different things, which is why some trans girls are tomboys.

I'd be really interesting to see evidence of this. I have never seen a story where the trans person says that as a young child they loved meeting the expectations placed on them by a gendered society, but they knew they were the opposite sex. It's always "I was born x but knew I was y because I liked y clothes and y toys"...

SabrinaMorningstar · 15/03/2021 18:28

You've confused MN with somewhere else. The overall consensus on MN is that DCs can wear what they like and play with any kind of toys. But childhood clothing and toy choices shouldn't lead to experimental surgery or experimental medication. It also shouldn't impact on single sex spaces. HTH.

Juliesipadwillcallyouback · 15/03/2021 18:28

No, it doesn't. Gendered behaviour and gender identity are 2 different things, which is why some trans girls are tomboys.

What, exactly, makes a male child a 'trans girl' then? What is the child identifying with that isn't stereotypes? Especially given that in the video it's all dresses and Barbies? I have been on this board for a few years now and have never got an answer to this question, so given you are here to 'educate' then this is a great opportunity!

Original poster

Shizuku · 15/03/2021 18:29

@MarkRuffaloCrumble

Watch how the other children interact with her. Do they seem traumatised? Terrified? Or is it just young children playing together like young children do?

Fixed that for you.

It may amaze you to realise, as you seem deluded about what feminists believe, but we’ve all been pushing for kids to be able to play together wi to whatever toys they enjoy for donkeys years! Let Toys Be Toys, for example, Pink Stinks, campaigns to highlight how much influence the choice of toys that adults provide and encourage can have over the way a child views themselves.

TRAs are literally adopting the exact same arguments that feminists have been spouting for decades - except the feminist answer is that ALL children should be able to play with all toys and wear all clothes. TRAs suggestion is that if a child likes to play with girls and so called girls toys they must be a girl and be put on a pathway to lifelong medication, sterilisation and surgery.

Wonder which of those approaches will be seen to be on the “right side of history” in future

" TRAs suggestion is that if a child likes to play with girls and so called girls toys they must be a girl and be put on a pathway to lifelong medication, sterilisation and surgery. "

That's a blatant lie. I just posted a link twice to an article showing that some trans girls are tomboys. If you were right, I'd be claiming they are not really trans girls wouldn't I?

OP posts:

Juliesipadwillcallyouback · 15/03/2021 18:29

It's always "I was born x but knew I was y because I liked y clothes and y toys"...

Yes, and amongst adult transwomen I have seen talking about it on twitter its also 'my parents wouldn't let me wear dresses or play with dolls as a child'.

MichelleofzeResistance · 15/03/2021 18:30

Yes it's lovely for the trans girl being one of the girls.

What are you going to do when there's a girl in the group it isn't lovely for? What about her? What about the traveller girl, the orthodox Jewish girl? The girl with Autism? The girl with trauma who perceives sex because she is unable not to?

You can't stick at wouldn't it be lovely if it just didn't matter. It would be lovely if there was no poverty and no crime either, but reality has to be faced.

Doingitaloneandproud · 15/03/2021 18:31

But why aren't the other children asked questions about it. And why if a girl felt uncomfortable with it should she have to push that aside?

persistentwoman · 15/03/2021 18:31

There's a real difference between propaganda films and how schools enable and negotiate the feelings, wishes and hopes of all children. Some children who believe they're the opposite sex are very popular with their peers - and some are not. Schools try to manage this with varying levels of success.
What schools are now realising is that the adult groups who use children (as in the the Observer quote above) "as pawns to be deployed in adult debates about identity" are counter productive. Working in a secondary school with a predominantly Muslim population and a boy of 13 deciding he wanted to identify as a girl, there was no question of mixed sex changing, showering or sleeping accommodation on residentials. The school understood that girls weren't there to provide validation for this teenager. And that were this to be imposed, the girls would be horrified and the community outrage would be immense. Third spaces were employed with the needs of all children being respected.

The only way of ensuring that healthy and respectful peer relationships are maintained is to ensure that the rights and boundaries of all children are respected and not just the demands of one child.

MNHQ

LilyMumsnet · 15/03/2021 18:32

Hi all, we're fine with this discussion as long as it takes place within our Talk guidelines on civil debate. Please do report anything which you think breaks the guidelines - we're always fine to take a look.

StopSearching · 15/03/2021 18:33

Regarding 'girl' toys and 'boy' toys I think this handy flow chart could educate you on the matter OP.

Original poster

Shizuku · 15/03/2021 18:33

@Juliesipadwillcallyouback

No, it doesn't. Gendered behaviour and gender identity are 2 different things, which is why some trans girls are tomboys.

What, exactly, makes a male child a 'trans girl' then? What is the child identifying with that isn't stereotypes? Especially given that in the video it's all dresses and Barbies? I have been on this board for a few years now and have never got an answer to this question, so given you are here to 'educate' then this is a great opportunity!

Well, a trans girl isn't male, but she just feels that she is a girl rather than a boy - it's not a case of toys or particular games or clothes (hence tomboy trans girls), it's an innate knowledge that scientists believe is biological in origin.

www.endocrine.org/advocacy/position-statements/transgender-health

OP posts:

CuriousaboutSamphire · 15/03/2021 18:34

Because nobody expects such threads there and most wouldn't post there in the same way as they post here.

The language of the OP was very goady, nothing to do with support. Much more 'spiky' than this version. Lots of cis this and offensive that!

It's a support space for parents with trans kids. Not an FWR free for all.

Plus I don't know why I saw it, I have all of the children threads hidden. There is some speculation it was moved there after we started posting on it.

Coffeeandcocopops · 15/03/2021 18:34

334bu
None of the girls are asked any questions about this. All we see are a group of children who have known one another since they were small children playing.
“Isn't it lovely - a trans girl just being one of the girls and everyone getting along fine.”

No because you didn’t ask the girls what they thought. Once the girls hit puberty they will not want a trans child in the showers with them. Blimey that would go against child protection that us adults are constantly watching out for. Where do the girls shower then?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 15/03/2021 18:34

Well, a trans girl isn't male, but she just feels that she is a girl rather than a boy

If a transgirl isn't male, what makes them trans?

Original poster

Shizuku · 15/03/2021 18:35

@StopSearching

Regarding 'girl' toys and 'boy' toys I think this handy flow chart could educate you on the matter OP.

Your posting that to the person who has been posting about trans girls who are tomboys. You probably ought to read my actual comments rather than answering what you think I must have said.

OP posts:

Original poster

Shizuku · 15/03/2021 18:36

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine

Well, a trans girl isn't male, but she just feels that she is a girl rather than a boy

If a transgirl isn't male, what makes them trans?

Having a gender identity that doesn't match the sex she was assigned at birth.

Typed that so many times now that I can do it with my eyes closed.

OP posts:

Coffeeandcocopops · 15/03/2021 18:37

@CuriousaboutSamphire

Because nobody expects such threads there and most wouldn't post there in the same way as they post here.

The language of the OP was very goady, nothing to do with support. Much more 'spiky' than this version. Lots of cis this and offensive that!

It's a support space for parents with trans kids. Not an FWR free for all.

Plus I don't know why I saw it, I have all of the children threads hidden. There is some speculation it was moved there after we started posting on it.

Yes it was moved there. I normally don’t see any child threads yet this popped up. The OP was goady and bating. She wanted people to potentially post what some would see as cruel comments on a trans children thread.

Original poster

Shizuku · 15/03/2021 18:37

@Coffeeandcocopops

334bu None of the girls are asked any questions about this. All we see are a group of children who have known one another since they were small children playing. “Isn't it lovely - a trans girl just being one of the girls and everyone getting along fine.”

No because you didn’t ask the girls what they thought. Once the girls hit puberty they will not want a trans child in the showers with them. Blimey that would go against child protection that us adults are constantly watching out for. Where do the girls shower then?

They have hit puberty.

OP posts:

MichelleofzeResistance · 15/03/2021 18:37

Also important to note: what when it's not a child who has been a part of the group from an early age, but is a child that reached their teens before socially transitioning and the girls in the group are expected to change with a teenager who they have always known as male?

This is the same argument often used for single sex spaces with pictures of very feminine, young and vulnerable TW meant to attract the sympathy and understanding of 'how could you be so unkind as to not want to look after that feminine person', where if the photograph or video showed an older, adult transitioned TW such as Danielle Muscato complete with beard and the 'suck my lady dick' tweets, women's varied responses would be immediately comprehensible.

Solutions are needed that work for everyone. And that means additional spaces for those who would prefer not to use sex based spaces, and also that some women and girls need single sex spaces.