A new definition of female, brought to you by twitter.

[PotholeParadies]

A female academic has posed this question

Please explain to me how a fully transitioned trans woman, who has breasts and a vagina, has orgasms and experiences the sex act in the same way my body does, should be forced to put male, not female, on the census, just because that is on her birth certificate.

Jane Clare Jones has already been on the case, but I thought we might also enjoy taking that apart.

"The sex act"?

It all seems to imply that femaleness is something endowed upon you if a man finds you sexually attractive. Not a new idea, tbh. Old novels used to coyly imply that one became a woman upon one's wedding night, which always grated on me as a girl reading them in the late 20th century.

Surely we can move beyond this in 2021?

As an aside and just as a matter of interest, what percentage of people declaring themselves transwomen tick all those boxes?

Easy

They have the genetic data of XY and not XX

So it's hypothetical as it's not possible today is it?

Can we cross that bridge when we get there ?

A female academic has posed this question

I hope to gawd that academic doesn't work in any science/biology/medical related fields, cause that's some powerful guff she's farting out...

Surely that person will have bothered to get a GRC and therefore could still legally put female anyway?

Because what sex you are isn't defined by how you have sex. Nor by what bits you have had removed from or attached to your own natural body. If I had antennae implanted on my head and decided to mate however beetles mate, that wouldn't make me a beetle.

midge you're using words to mean things again.

Someone has told her that post-SRS, results are indistinguishable, and that is what she will stick with.

They’re not vaginas though are they? If I fashioned a ‘lung’ out of other parts of a body, would it be a lung?

Didn’t that twitterer used to be GC and did a volte face a little while ago? She’s gone full biology denial now. Weird.

I have a trans daughter, and have seen a couple of neovagina's in my time belonging to her friends (all consenting adults in completely platonic circumstances, get your mind out of the gutter), and I'm 99% sure they don't have orgasms like a biological female. In fact, my understand of them (and the reason my dd doesn't want one) is that they require a lot of hard work and maintance to remain 'functional'.

"They have the genetic data of XY and not XX"

Oh No!
The biology strikes back. The science which must not be named has returned!

Also, what if said hypothetical person doesn't have sex with anyone? Does that mean she'll invalidate their identity as soon as she finds out about their lack of sexual history?

Cos it’s the truth 🤷‍♀️ humans can’t change sex. The bloody census is meant to be about facts.

(& I have no bloody idea if my experience of sex is the same as every other female-seems unlikely- so why the hell would it be the same as a male with cosmetic surgery?)

There are some replies.

twitter.com/KatherineJPoole/status/1369610536195854338

Ignoring the fact that this hypothetical person can't exist as described, a trans person who, having undergone hormones and surgeries, has chosen not to obtain a GRC, surely that's their own private business?

Without wanting to be cruel Eteri it's a matter of going down the riskiest route in order to be penetrable. I hope your child centres their own wellbeing and not their appeal to men.

@nauticant

Without wanting to be cruel Eteri it's a matter of going down the riskiest route in order to be penetrable. I hope your child centres their own wellbeing and not their appeal to men.

Oh, no. It's completely off the table concurrently. One of her friends has had a horrendous, agonizing time healing from hers, so any idea of even entertaining it has completely poofed away as a result of that.

I'm celibate does that mean I'm a non person by her logic?

That's good to hear Eteri.

"a fully transitioned trans woman, who has breasts and a vagina, has orgasms and experiences the sex act in the same way my body does"

Um. But that is not possible?

Breast tissue can be hormonally stimulated and surgically enhanced or reduced for both men and women.

Only women have vaginas. Surgically-created facsimiles may alleviate dysphoria and be worth the potential complications for some (as we know, this 'bottom surgery' is not at all required to ID as 'trans' and represents an increasingly small % of those who label themselves as such) but they are not vaginas. 'Experiences the sex act in the same way my body does' is delusional thinking and while it may feel cruel to point this out, it is ultimately crueller to imagine that current medicine can entirely reinvent a body. It can't.

Focusing on 'the sex act' is, as you've rightly noted, @PotholeParadies, a bit... regressive.

And also a bit of that other thing we're not supposed to mention.

Oh God, Fern Riddell.

I read her book on the suffragette Kitty Marion. A fascinating woman whose story Riddell told in the style of Barbara Cartland. It doesn't surprise me that it turns out she's not even sure what a woman is or why it would matter.

@Eteri oh, I'm glad. The physical toll it takes may be worth it for a very small number, but the potential and likely difficulties are often glossed over. I'm so sorry her friend has had such a rough time of it.

@lazylinguist

Because what sex you are isn't defined by how you have sex. Nor by what bits you have had removed from or attached to your own natural body. If I had antennae implanted on my head and decided to mate however beetles mate, that wouldn't make me a beetle.

🤣

I was trying to find a pic of the 3D image of the clitoris that was published only a few years ago...and discovered a French website where you can download a free 3D printed model
"the life-size model was designed by the French engineer, sociologist, and independent researcher Odile Fillod" - who knew!

I'm not a French speaker, so hoping this is legit...

carrefour-numerique.cite-sciences.fr/fablab/wiki/doku.php?id=projets%3Aclitoris