A new definition of female, brought to you by twitter.

[PotholeParadies]

A female academic has posed this question

Please explain to me how a fully transitioned trans woman, who has breasts and a vagina, has orgasms and experiences the sex act in the same way my body does, should be forced to put male, not female, on the census, just because that is on her birth certificate.

Jane Clare Jones has already been on the case, but I thought we might also enjoy taking that apart.

Eteri

thanks Eteri. That is interesting. So the phrase inferring a wet vagina is probably factually not possible naturally. Good to know.

I hope the best for your daughter and their friends. It must be a very difficult choice, made even more difficult by some degree of mixed information.

Oh my.

Look at these images and quotes someone has supplied in their quote tweet of her.

twitter.com/Ezrx0x/status/1369639861850890240?s=19

@FlamedToACrisp

Please explain to me how a fully transitioned trans woman... should be forced to put male, not female, on the census, just because that is on her birth certificate.

How about: because the question is asking what sex you were registered at birth, not what sex do you think you are?

Is this not illegal if they don't possess a GRC?

I know that there will be a further case wrt the integrity of the birth sex, but as of now, it is sex on birth cert or that 'reassigned' in GRC only.

@Helleofabore

Eteri

thanks Eteri. That is interesting. So the phrase inferring a wet vagina is probably factually not possible naturally. Good to know.

I hope the best for your daughter and their friends. It must be a very difficult choice, made even more difficult by some degree of mixed information.

It would probably be adequate lubercation for the likes of finger penetration, but for intercourse? No, I wouldn't say so, and if my dd ever DID decide to go down that path I hope she wouldn't be stupid enougj to try it without a shit tone of water based lube.

Thank you.

@toolatetofixate

Vaginas are self cleaning. How does that work with a neo-vagina?

Don't mean to derail the thread I'm just at the assertion that a surgically created "vagina" is being compared to genuine female anatomy and experience.

Neicaginas are most certainly not self cleaning. They are often malodorous and contain fecal bacteria. I feel serious stories for anybody that has had the surgery tbh. They are absent of candida and I find that odd as yeast is literally in the air and can colonise a flour sample and make bread but can't colonise an artificial pocket of inverted penile skin. Looking at the surgery techniques and there's is very little muscle involved. It certainly doesn't contract , stretch or self clean and would need to be rinsed as well as stretched/dilated very frequently.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2695466/

@PotholeParadies

"Enjoy ur erasure" Shon is filling out data gathering documents to say Shon is female and identifies as a woman?

So as far as anyone will know from the census, Shon was born female and never had to do any fighting for trans rights or anything? Shon is literally covering up the existence of trans people?

Okay. Well, if you want to erase yourself...

Well that is what I was thinking.

If every trans person fills out the form with sex as the gender they have transitioned to, with no mention of their birth sex, they the statistics will read that there are no trans people. Surely that isn’t going to help anyone.
If the government get back details saying that 1% of the population is trans as opposed to 10% (numbers made up) then they would cut so much funding for trans support groups etc.

@Eteri

Can they actually feel anything when penetrated in the neovagina?

Prostrate cancer and ovarian cancer really don't care about your gender identity and feelings.. surely it's crucial to get accurate figures to ensure that allocations for medical care etc are directed correctly?

Let's assume another horrible virus like COVID comes along (heaven forbid) but has a vastly disproportionate effect on men rather than women... are trans women still going to insist they are women or will they be clamouring for their place in the vaccine priority group?

@soubriquet

Yes, actually!

The neovagina is actually more sensitive than the neoclitros, and it's more likely to achieve orgasm from penetration than stimulation.

@ChiefBabySniffer

Jesus. The surgery sounds barbaric. I'm sorry if this gets me deleted or banned but that's basically mutilation.

I cannot escape the feeling that transsexualism/transgenderism/whatever the latest approved term is, is a serious mental disorder. To want to put yourself through such procedures, not to mention the life long upkeep and complications, strikes me as the sign of someone who is truly unwell.

How have we got to a place where any of this is acceptable? Of course a consenting adult can do whatever they please to themselves. I just wonder how we even ended up with such surgeries as an option. I imagine an alternate universe where society took the route of therapy and counselling for such people. It would be nice to see how that approach could have turned out.

@TheChampagneGalop

She replies twitter.com/FernRiddell/status/1369612250051469318 "In terms of vagina’s getting wet and having an orgasm - I never stated penetration. You immediately assumed male/female sex acts which says an awful lot about your own issues on this. And that’s gross. You’re just denying another human being’s bodily autonomy. Why?"

She has a doctorate in history and she can't use an apostrophe correctly. Pass the smelling salts.

Fair enough. Well I wish your dd luck in the future

If the government get back details saying that 1% of the population is trans as opposed to 10% (numbers made up) then they would cut so much funding for trans support groups etc

And there will surely be less support for changing language to cervix-havers, menstruators in official documents, for purposes of public information etc if the numbers of trans people are perceived to be very small.

Also, if the MoJ have to start recording the sex of offenders, it's going to really skew the percentages. 100 (for example) male-bodied violent offenders presenting as female is going to appear as an inflated percentage of the trans population as a whole if so many trans people haven't identified themselves as such on the census.

My mind a genuinely blown by all this posturing about it being more important to self-validate by lying on the census (thereby making it seem like there are fewer trans people than there are) than to have accurate stats on the UK trans population so trans people can make the arguments they'd like to for NHS funding, changing the legal protections for 51% of the population, etc.

They have got to be just saying it for effect. No-one is that self defeating, surely.

If the inverted penis method is used, as I understand it, there can be problems with hair growth inside the neovagina if electrolysis hasn't been done adequately.

If the above method to create the neovagina isn't feasible then I think the colon is used.

Surprised an academic needs to answer that. It's because a transwomen is a biological male. Gender identity and sex are not the same things.

@terryleather

If the inverted penis method is used, as I understand it, there can be problems with hair growth inside the neovagina if electrolysis hasn't been done adequately.

If the above method to create the neovagina isn't feasible then I think the colon is used.

organic penis

There’s something just completely Mumsnet about that phrase grin ought it to be free range, too?

Sophocles! No, no, no! Haven't most of our problems with gender ideology been caused by its propensity to enable penises to range entirely too far?!

Twitter and other social media keep chirping at me that it's brilliant that trans people are going to be able to record their gender identity in the census for the first time.

But apparently according to twitter polls, most don't want to use the facility. So what's the point, then?!

The pudding is well tanned and a bit desiccated but has forgiven me for my culinary lapse, which I rescued with some nifty trimming of the burnt bits with a sharp knife. All's well, thank you for asking

Twitter and other social media keep chirping at me that it's brilliant that trans people are going to be able to record their gender identity in the census for the first time.

If there is a requirement that they must record their sex observed at birth, then it matters little if they want to record their gender identity in addition to that.

Poor pudding. I keep wanting to say figgy pudding, and I've got We wish you a Merry Christmas going through my head.

More to the point, if the current figures show that men are twice as likely to have (e.g.) heart disease than women are, and we suddenly see a huge rise in women with heart disease, we need to know if there's a women-with-heart-disease problem to be addressed, or just a change in labelling. And also, we can't deduce from the figures if there's a heart-disease-in-men-who've-had-female-hormones problem.

Yes, this exactly. The labels can be protective to the biological females who have been neglected by science. If we remove a meaningful distinction between a biological female and a biological male then bottom line is more females will die.

If the female academic can't get this, she's not coming across as being very bright.