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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Mumsnet says Trans Rights are Human Rights!

999 replies

ool0n · 03/03/2021 14:39

I always assumed Mumsnet were not the biggest supporters of trans rights, given the stories about them. But this is a good statement on Twitter, "of course trans people exist, and of course trans rights are human rights"
twitter.com/MumsnetTowers/status/1367071394870276099

Also I thought using terms like cisgender or cis were against the rules, this isn't true either -
twitter.com/MumsnetTowers/status/1367080005193318401

So can I get a trans rights are human rights, trans women are women, trans men are men and non binary people are valid!

OP posts:
Winesalot · 03/03/2021 22:14

A trans person can change their biological sex wrt Hormonal sex, and secondary/primary sex characteristics.

Please note, a trans person may artificially change the hormones in their body. If they have had no surgery removing their hormone producing organs, and they stopped taking artificial hormones, their body will attempt to make the hormones relating to the coding of their cells. This is not a permanent change and the hormones are completely artificial.

And cosmetic changes are cosmetic and do not change any thing else (unless they are involved in hormone production). For instance, as people have mentioned, a neo vagina is not the same as a vagina, it is an approximation. It doesn’t for instance function as an organ to allow sperm to be deposited into a uterus or for menstrual blood to be eliminated from the body.

bigotryisbad · 03/03/2021 22:16

@ArabellaScott.

I quoted the exemption, in full, and explained why it wasn't relevant unless the requirements for it's use are met.

PheasantPlucker1 · 03/03/2021 22:16

No amount of hormone therapy will decrease a male lung capacity, or the many other biological differences between the sexes.

oolOn a friend recently wrote a paper on the sex differences in the carpal bone.

The paper discusses carpal sex, and it is assumed no one will get confused and assume the carpals are now a key factor in determining sex.

Science discusses many different types of sex differentation, but this does not mean these are all valid equal ways to determine sex.

ool0n · 03/03/2021 22:17

@Winesalot - "the hormones are completely artificial" - the hormones are an exact analogue of the hormones in any cis man or woman's body. Where they come from is irrelevant unless you want to make a naturalistic fallacy?

Biologically their hormonal sex has changed, that's a fact and where the hormones come from, or the fact it can change again is irrelevant.

OP posts:
BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 03/03/2021 22:17

A trans person can change their biological sex wrt Hormonal sex, and secondary/primary sex characteristics.

jeez louise

where do babies come from?

OldCrone · 03/03/2021 22:19

The Gender Recognition act requires a person to have been living I their acquired gender for two years before applying.

How does a man live as a woman? How does a woman live as a man?

bigotryisbad · 03/03/2021 22:19

@Impatiens

Others in this thread are pretending that women's rights and trans people's rights are in conflict, which they demonstrably aren't.

'Demonstrably'? Can you demonstrate how they aren't in conflict @bigotryisbad? Why do you think so many women (and men) are so concerned over the effect of trans activism on Women's Rights if this is so clearly mistaken?

Many people stormed the Capitol building in America because they believed that the election had been stolen from Donald Trump.

Why were they concerned when it so clearly hadn't been?

I have addressed the reason why rights for trans people, which have existed for 80 years (more than all of our lifetimes) and which have been working without any evidence of systematic issue for all that time, don't conflict with women's rights.

Barracker · 03/03/2021 22:20

All humans deserve human rights.

I respectfully disagree with all of your other assertions OP.

bigotryisbad · 03/03/2021 22:21

@OldCrone

The Gender Recognition act requires a person to have been living I their acquired gender for two years before applying.

How does a man live as a woman? How does a woman live as a man?

You're welcome to address that question to the act of parliament.

In the meantime, due to "Gender Critical" transphobia, we're very unlikely to get a change in the law any time soon.

yourhairiswinterfire · 03/03/2021 22:22

don't conflict with women's rights.

Yes they do, there was a judicial review today highlighting just how badly they conflict, and just how badly everyone wants to cover it up.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 03/03/2021 22:22

1. I literally set out the exemption in full. Claiming that a part heard case in which the Equality Act seems unlikely to apply over-rules the statute law isn't a thing.

The Equality Act exemptions are statute law. You really don’t have a clue what you are talking about do you! Are a law student? The MOJ accepted that the EA does apply they admitted in court that prisons do fall under the Act. (The grounds of their concession is interesting and the judges have required a written statements to be submitted by next week).

The case is also looking at the interaction between the GRA and the EA and the single sex exemption may well override the provisions of the GRA in this case.

CoronaCurls · 03/03/2021 22:24

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Nameitychangity · 03/03/2021 22:24

[quote ool0n]@Winesalot - "the hormones are completely artificial" - the hormones are an exact analogue of the hormones in any cis man or woman's body. Where they come from is irrelevant unless you want to make a naturalistic fallacy?

Biologically their hormonal sex has changed, that's a fact and where the hormones come from, or the fact it can change again is irrelevant.[/quote]
So are you saying that a woman post menopause with lowered female hormone levels is now a man?
Or that a woman with PCOS and elevated testosterone is a man?
Or that an obese man who produces too much oestrogen because of fat levels, is now a woman?
Diabetes, tumours of the adrenal glands or testicles, hyperthyroidism, or overactive thyroid and cirrhosis all cause elevated oestrogen levels in men. Are they now woman because according to you, their hormonal sex has changed.
Total garbage.

Sophoclesthefox · 03/03/2021 22:24

I have addressed the reason why rights for trans people, which have existed for 80 years (more than all of our lifetimes) and which have been working without any evidence of systematic issue for all that time, don't conflict with women's rights*

No,you really haven’t, because you’ve hand waved away the evolution over that time of the definition of what “trans” is- from the original meaning of a transsexual who needed help to be able to live with their crippling gender dysphoria through some legal accommodations, , to trans now being an aspect of a persons identity, with no discernible definition or parameters at all, with a prohibition placed on differentiating natal sex from gender at all, plus the insistence that everyone has this identity, whether they’re aware of it or not.

OldCrone · 03/03/2021 22:25

I have addressed the reason why rights for trans people, which have existed for 80 years (more than all of our lifetimes) and which have been working without any evidence of systematic issue for all that time, don't conflict with women's rights.

The GRA was passed in 2004 and the Equality Act in 2010. (That's somewhat less than 80 years ago in case you're not very good with numbers).

How many trans people were there 80 years ago?

Have you seen this thread?
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4180758-MOJ-Prison-Policy-JR-TODAY

Even the MoJ which is quite happy to put male people in women's prisons has had to admit that there have been 7 sexual assaults on women by transwomen in women's prisons in the last 4 years. Is that not evidence of a problem and a conflict with women's rights?

JustSpeculation · 03/03/2021 22:25

There's a whole bunch of characteristics that cause sex and a whole bunch which result from sex, and it's fun to talk about them. But that's not what I'm confused about. My problem is that I can not see gender identity as a coherent concept. The question that Kathleen Stock posed some years ago sticks in my mind. If gender is an innate thing which the possessor is aware of, then how, if you have two people who say they identify as the same gender, can you be sure they identify as the same thing? How do you know? Unless you can answer that question, I can see no way in which the concept can have any useful coherence at all.

Doyoumind · 03/03/2021 22:25

When a trans person takes hormones they aren't intaking exactly the same hormones in exactly the same levels as natural hormones are produced. It's completely artificial. When someone with brown hair bleaches it, they don't become biologically blonde.

ArabellaScott · 03/03/2021 22:25

it wasn't relevant unless the requirements for it's use are met.

Proportionate means for a legitimate aim, yes? Surely women's safety, privacy, dignity, peace of mind are legitimate aims?

ool0n · 03/03/2021 22:25

@OldCrone

The Gender Recognition act requires a person to have been living I their acquired gender for two years before applying.

How does a man live as a woman? How does a woman live as a man?

This is. very good question, the GRA 2004 enforces stereotypes of what is to be a woman or man. Trans healthcare is gatekept by psychologists who will insist trans people act stereotypically as a man or woman to get treatment. That's a real scandal, informed consent for healthcare and self identification gets rid of this institutional enforcement of stereotypes.
OP posts:
NewarkShark · 03/03/2021 22:26

This case is about prisons, not about public spaces or services. It also deals with the provision of items to someone who was an escape risk, in prison, and the justification included whether the items (including a wig) could be used to escape. You've been very clear that you're a lawyer (although you've not said which type?) but that doesn't over rule what the Equality Human Rights commission say, which is the opposite: www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/gender-reassignment-discrimination So I don't know (but I'm sure you'll explain as a lawyer) how a High Court Case about a very different set of facts could be relevant to the question at hand or be good reason to ignore the statute, the guidance and human rights law. I'd address you to the case R. (on the application of E) v Ashworth Hospital Authority [2001] EWHC Admin 1089 where even restrictions placed on a psychiatric patient’s freedom to dress as a woman and to assume the appearance of a woman constituted an interference with the protected Human Right to a private life and therefore a breach of human rights. Without the specific issues created by the imprisonment of the people concerned, there doesn't seem to be much room for your argument to stand

@bigotryisbad

I am an employment and discrimination lawyer. The lions share of my job involves interpreting the Equality Act.

  1. The case you mentioned is irrelevant on a number of grounds. it’s from 2001 which predates the Equality Act by nearly a decade. A case cannot assist with interpreting legislation not yet in force. We could look to the case law on the discrimination before the Equality Act, but the case isn’t about the Gender Reassignment Regs either. See paragraph 4:

The case advanced on his behalf is that the hospital cannot lawfully prevent him from wearing women’s clothing: the restrictions placed on him are (1) outwith the hospital's statutory and implied or common law powers as a detaining hospital and/or (2) in breach of his rights under Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights

It isn’t even a discrimination case. It has literally nothing to do with the Equality Act or its interpretation.

  1. The case I mentioned is entirely on point. The point is who the relevant comparator is for the purposes of a trans woman ref s13 Equality Act. Green deals with that point. It doesn’t matter that it was in a prison or whatever. The facts are different, but the law is the same.

The relevant comment from the judge is:

A comparator has to be found in order for there to be discrimination or for the claimant to show she has had less favourable treatment. The claimant asserts the comparator should be a female prisoner; whereas the governor contends it should be a male prisoner. There can be no doubt the claimant has a protected characteristic – gender reassignment. The claimant is, however, male. The only possible comparator is to a male prisoner who is not undergoing gender reassignment

  1. What the High Court says in Green in fact does override what the EHRC says. What the EHRC says is guidance, not law. The High Court’s decision is in fact part of the law and binds inferior courts.
  1. the EHRC guidance doesn’t back you up. It says nothing about who the relevant comparator is when deciding if a trans person has suffered discrimination.

I don’t want to be rude but I think you need to read up about comparators. S13 refers to less favourable treatment and is meaningless until you’ve identified who you are comparing to. You seem to think it is women, and that a trans woman must not be treated differently to a woman. That is not what the law is. That is not the meaning of section 13 in relation to a trans woman.

PheasantPlucker1 · 03/03/2021 22:26

BigotryisBad it has been proven to you that in both the law and the recommended guidance you have linked too, there are exemptions made for single sex spaces.

Its also quite insulting to transpeople for you to suggest that 80 years ago, in 1940, transpeople were living in peace in England, and given the legal right to live as the opposite sex.
1n 1940 a transwoman would have been seen as legally male, conscripted and shot if they refused to fight as was expected of a man.
A transwoman wishing to marry a man could have been imprisoned.

ArabellaScott · 03/03/2021 22:27

I agree, ool0n. The GRA is terrible law, badly defined. It should be scrapped.

Doyoumind · 03/03/2021 22:27

That weird woman who turned her skin brown by having melanin injected didn't become biologically black. Or do you think she did?

NewarkShark · 03/03/2021 22:28

I should say in relation to a trans woman with no GRC. I said that in my first post and it still applies.

I agree that you don’t need a GRC to come under s7 by the way.

ool0n · 03/03/2021 22:28

@Doyoumind

When a trans person takes hormones they aren't intaking exactly the same hormones in exactly the same levels as natural hormones are produced. It's completely artificial. When someone with brown hair bleaches it, they don't become biologically blonde.
"Natural" hormones are produced in every level you can imagine, way bigger a variation than trans people will experience as their endocrinologist will keep them to tight limits - the typical or "normal" range for men and women. Again this is a very naturalistic fallacy sounding line of argument. Biologically their hormonal sex changes, nothing so far comes close to refuting that. The biological defn of hormonal sex is purely the levels in the persons bloodstream, where it came from isn't part of the defn.
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