Mumsnet says Trans Rights are Human Rights!

[ool0n]

I always assumed Mumsnet were not the biggest supporters of trans rights, given the stories about them. But this is a good statement on Twitter, "of course trans people exist, and of course trans rights are human rights"
twitter.com/MumsnetTowers/status/1367071394870276099

Also I thought using terms like cisgender or cis were against the rules, this isn't true either -
twitter.com/MumsnetTowers/status/1367080005193318401

So can I get a trans rights are human rights, trans women are women, trans men are men and non binary people are valid!

Basic gcse wiki explanation.

In humans, sex is determined by five factors present at birth: the presence or absence of a Y chromosome, the type of gonadss, the sex hormoness, the internal reproductive anatomy (such as the uteruss* in females), and the external genitalia.[91] Generally, the five factors are either all male or all female. Sexual ambiguity is rare in humans, but wherein such ambiguity does occur, the individual is biologically classified as intersexx*.

Women do naturally have testosterone. It can be high with pcos. Men can raise their oestrogen by drinking too much. This is not changing sex. That's being a human.

You are being really quite offensive to anyone born with an intersex condition or difference.

Hence we say sex is a spectrum, as humans can and do have hormonal, genetic, chromosomal sex characteristics that don't match their assignment at birth, or their identity. Humans are amazingly diverse.

No, they aren’t that diverse. We can predict with very high certainty which of them will give birth, and most women do give birth. If they didn’t the human race, like any other species would die out,

None of this signifies value. Some really awful people become parents - but those that are female still need sex based rights.

I think you are cherry picking information to support your wish that sex could be ignored.

Most users of this site don’t have that privilege.

That's why feminists (At least the ones I know) define woman as an identity, as to be a woman you don't need a particular biology or to follow a particular role. You are one if you say you are

No I am not going to show you a Biology paper that asks students to define what a woman is. And I didn't say that this question appears in any Biology papers. It is the cursive statement above that I am talking about. You DO need a particular biology to be considered a woman in a biology exam. Especially in questions about reproduction. "The Sperm fertilises the sperm ", for example, is not going to get any marks a question about fertilisation.

Completely wrong about testosterone, sorry.

In adults the highest rate for females is around 75 in ng/dl, whereas the lowest for males is 300 in ng/dl.

Theres is no overlap, and certainly no females have a Tlevel considered high (approx 1,200 in ng/dl) for males.

The study into elite women athletes showed some women with far more T than elite male athletes. Some elite male athletes in the female typical range of T!

THE study???

Could someone do me a big favour? I have work to finish.. tell me not to bite and explain what those multiple sports studies actually showed!

The study into elite women athletes showed some women with far more T than elite male athletes. Some elite male athletes in the female typical range of T!

Going to need a citation of that, please. Male and femaletestoerone levels do not overlap AT ALL unless possibly the person has a DSD or some other disorder.

Normal Female t levels: 8-60 ng/dl
Normal Male t levels: 250-950 no/dl

Women isn’t an identity. You can change an ‘identity’ and take on another identity, your identity may even change over time, or dependant on your situation, life stage or mood.

I thought that too, uhtred. Usually this thread would be deleted or be like Swiss cheese. However, sunlight is very illuminating...

Thanks @PheasantPlucker1 that might just hold me off!

@PheasantPlucker1

oolOn apologies if I have misunderstood, but qre you argueing we cant actually define what sex is?

We cant define who is male, and who is female?

Not for all of humanity, according to the scientists who signed the not-binary.org/statement - if you are talking about biological sex and not identity. There are no genetic tests that will define everyone as solely "male" or "female". Humans have Chromosomal sex that is typically male, but Hormonal/Genetic sex that is typically female. That person is neither solely biologically male or female. A trans person can change their biological sex wrt Hormonal sex, and secondary/primary sex characteristics. That person isn't entirely typically "male" or "female" wrt biological sex.

Biologically "Male" and "Female" are defined as a set of characteristics that men and women typically have. High T is considered "male" because men typically have much higher T than women. Human diversity means there are a lot of people who don't have all those characteristics aligning with their identity as male or female.

I have no issue with trans rights are human rights- this is true. Everyone should be able to feel safe. Human rights, and women's rights- two different things at times, and shouldn't be conflated.

Where are you getting all of that from?!?!?

@PheasantPlucker1

Completely wrong about testosterone, sorry.

In adults the highest rate for females is around 75 in ng/dl, whereas the lowest for males is 300 in ng/dl.

Theres is no overlap, and certainly no females have a Tlevel considered high (approx 1,200 in ng/dl) for males.

Thanks for this, and I want to point out that the impact of hormones on the body starts at puberty.

A 12 year old boy has already begun to get a lung capacity larger than a 12 year old girl.

And bones, muscles etc.,

Not you @SD1978

The pseudoscience above your post!

Posted too soon and incorrectly!! Women's rights are also human rights- and there can be differences in what different, human groups need.

Humans have Chromosomal sex that is typically male, but Hormonal/Genetic sex that is typically female. That person is neither solely biologically male or female.

As linked above, no this is not correct.

None of it i! It's like human biology as translated by a Flat Earther!

They are unless they are intersex.

Again you are being incredibly offensively, and appropriating of anyone who has an intersex condition.

How come gender seems so easy to separate into female and male, based on stereotypes, when being a women and men is unique to you.

But sex which is easy to determine by anatomy, biology into female and male is a spectrum.

Hmmm... puzzling!

Even with the interplay of hormonal, chromosomal, gonadal sex etc. fundamentally many of the structural inequalities faced by women result from reproductive biology. Be it cultural curbs on freedom to ensure legitimate heirs, FGM to discourage sexual activity, disadvantage in the workplace due to maternity. These have profound impact on the social, physical and economic status of the sex that bears young.

Trying to obfuscate the practical realities of sex differences is regressive. We can only address inequalities when we can name them.

So yes Trans Rights are human rights and Women’s Rights are human rights.

[quote ool0n]@RedDogsBeg - "Pray tell what is this particular role? There must be some defining criteria for it."

Sorry I obviously wasn't clear, I'm saying there isn't a particular role that defines "woman". Despite patriarchal groups claiming there is, and they base this on "biology".[/quote]
No you weren't clear. I don't think you actually know or understand what point you are making nor what argument you are putting forward.

@Sophoclesthefox

The study into elite women athletes showed some women with far more T than elite male athletes. Some elite male athletes in the female typical range of T!

Going to need a citation of that, please. Male and femaletestoerone levels do not overlap AT ALL unless possibly the person has a DSD or some other disorder.

Normal Female t levels: 8-60 ng/dl
Normal Male t levels: 250-950 no/dl

Here's one study of elite athletes, page marked "297", some men have female typical T levels. Women's T levels stretch over the entire range of mens. The correlation between T levels and performance seems far from established even for elite athletes. onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/cen.12445

There are no genetic tests that will define everyone as solely "male" or "female".

But very, very few people can’t easily and correctly be defined as male or female and sex has very significant and unavoidable consequences.

You might as well say Covid doesn’t exist because sometimes tests provide false negatives or false positives.

Biologically "Male" and "Female" are defined as a set of characteristics that men and women typically have. High T is considered "male" because men typically have much higher T than women.

Oh my goodness, no. That's not how science defines Male and Female!

Out of date on the sort thing. Dr Joanna Harper has just published to say that after conducting further research, she now agrees with the findings of Dr emma Hilton that TW retain sex based physical advantages after transition.

Dr Harper did the original study which the IOC based their trans policy on

bjsm.bmj.com/content/early/2021/02/28/bjsports-2020-103106

Emma Hilton’s thread on twitter twitter.com/fondofbeetles/status/1367149242020737026?s=21