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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Mumsnet says Trans Rights are Human Rights!

999 replies

ool0n · 03/03/2021 14:39

I always assumed Mumsnet were not the biggest supporters of trans rights, given the stories about them. But this is a good statement on Twitter, "of course trans people exist, and of course trans rights are human rights"
twitter.com/MumsnetTowers/status/1367071394870276099

Also I thought using terms like cisgender or cis were against the rules, this isn't true either -
twitter.com/MumsnetTowers/status/1367080005193318401

So can I get a trans rights are human rights, trans women are women, trans men are men and non binary people are valid!

OP posts:
Waspnest · 03/03/2021 18:56

a woman is an adult human who identifies as a woman.

So if I don't identify as a woman... does that mean I'm not a woman? Confused

Sophoclesthefox · 03/03/2021 18:58

I have seen a few new faces on this thread, which is great, because contrary to popular belief, dissenting opinions are welcome.

You’ve probably been told that this places is full of senseless bigotry, overrun by “t*rfs” (that word is treated as a slur here, and it will generally get you deleted by the way) who are immune to logic and reason.

It’s not true. Women here didn’t get here through being ignorant. Many are like me, and started off as natural trans allies, being on the left and well disposed towards championing the underdog and ensuring that everyone is treated fairly.

I reached my position because I couldn’t find the logic.

The parallels with religion bothered me.

The compulsion to “be kind”, while in the same breath someone dehumanised me by calling me a cervix haver, or threatened rape.

So I read, and I talked, and I listened, and I processed, and I reflected, and I arrived at an ethical position that I have tested and questioned over years. It is: sex matters, women’s rights have to be defended and while anyone can believe anything about themselves that they choose, belief cannot be compelled, and makes bad law. If there’s no conflict between women’s rights and trans rights, then nothing about that statement should be contentious.

But do please know this, however I got here, it wasn’t through ignorance or bigotry, so telling me that will just make me make this face Confused

LangClegsInSpace · 03/03/2021 18:58

Ahh 'Relationship Purposes' Robin Grin Is he still around?

If a wizard ...

Mumsnet says Trans Rights are Human Rights!
PurpleHoodie · 03/03/2021 18:58

If you are a UK woman - checkout the other FWR threads.

BarbaraofKent · 03/03/2021 19:00

@Sophoclesthefox great post.

Waspnest · 03/03/2021 19:01

Lang I've read that tweet three times and it still makes no sense is a load of old bollocks.

TransRightsRCool · 03/03/2021 19:02

@SilverBirchWithout

It doesn't matter what definition I provide, you won't be satisfied. So I'll stick with this one: a woman is an adult human who identifies as a woman. *Born female? You grow into a woman. Trans woman? Oh look you're a woman. Nonbinary people sometimes interact with the identity of woman too but I think we'll leave it there for now. But this definition is sort of a catch-all. It's probably not fool-proof though. I'm not exactly infallible.*

This argument doesn’t work unless you can define what a woman actually is.
What does ‘oh look you’re a women’ mean? What does ‘identify as a woman’ mean?

That would be individual to the person. There is no right or wrong way to be a woman, last I checked.
merrymouse · 03/03/2021 19:02

The reason this place is a bloody echo chamber is because whenever someone is asked a simple question such as 'what is a woman' or 'what is a female gender identity' they can never answer it and bugger off!

Which is if odd because people have very robust conversations about Brexit, Covid restrictions, private schools etc. It’s true that on some subjects particular opinions tend to dominate, but people are able to present a different point of view.

You would have thought that over the years at least somebody would have come up with the non circular, non stereotype based explanation of gender identity (as opposed to gender dysphoria which seems very understandable).

BarbaraofKent · 03/03/2021 19:02

Can I just say we are 600 posts into this thread, there have been lots of people (presumably directed here from Twitter) come on here to tell us how awful we are...

And yet we still don't have an answer to the questions 'what is a woman' and 'what is a female gender identity'.

If anyone wants to send anyone else over from twitter to have a go at answering these two very simple questions that would be great, thanks!

SilverBirchWithout · 03/03/2021 19:03

So I'll stick with this one: a woman is an adult human who identifies as a woman

But I don’t identify as a woman, does that mean I am not actually a woman despite my biology and lived experience as a biological woman?

PotholeParadies · 03/03/2021 19:04

a woman is an adult human who identifies as a woman

Could we please unpick that? So, if I was in a coma, I wouldn't be identifying as anything, any more than I would be nitpicking other people's Latin.

So how would you decide what I was? Do I stop being a woman if I am incapable of that level of thought? Have you considered how disableist the implications of that might be?

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 03/03/2021 19:04

Trans women exist; they are part of "women".

What part of 'women' are transwomen?

/////

I'm sorry to lower the tone but how can a penis be part of a woman? Really? How can anybody seriously go along with that?

We all unanimously agree that a trans man or woman has the same human rights as anybody. Some people believe in gender some don't. This is all ok. You can wear what you like and express yourself how you choose provided everybody else is kept safe and boundaries are respected. All good. Everyone is valid and no one is claiming some people don't flippin exist.

But biology is real. There are laws in place to protect the most vulnerable. If those laws trigger you in any way that's your problem. If an individual feels their "gender expression " is more important than safety and fairness for women and children they are very entitled buggers who need to give their heads a wobble.

Rant over Confused I'm still on the naughty seat after my telling off from bigot (still no receipts) and having hoped my gender identity may reveal itself - sadly, not yet - I'm starting to ramble. Maybe my blood sugar is low .... any fruity, spongy snack suggestions?

Waspnest · 03/03/2021 19:04

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

TransRightsRCool · 03/03/2021 19:04

@Waspnest

a woman is an adult human who identifies as a woman.

So if I don't identify as a woman... does that mean I'm not a woman? Confused

That would be down to you entirely and what your comfortable with. If you'd still prefer to be known as a woman than you're absolutely still a woman!
Mockolate · 03/03/2021 19:05

I have seen a few new faces on this thread, which is great, because contrary to popular belief, dissenting opinions are welcome.

That is just utter crap though, sorry.
I've been on MN years and there may be a handful of posters who are genuine and "middle of the road" and open to discussion, but in most threads on here, if you're not of the same opinion, you're in a minority and it's like pack mentality.
NOT because too soft to take different opinions or whatever, or being disagreed with.
It's more than that,

TransRightsRCool · 03/03/2021 19:05

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted as it quotes a deleted post.

MrsHusky · 03/03/2021 19:06

ok.

Still thinking about the sense of self thing, but again, coming at the thing from just where I am in my pathway through all this. I'm aware people will disagree, and they're welcome to, i dont claim to have all the answers.

This whole thing is difficult, i mean, i'm a woman, my sense of my gender identity matches my biological sex and always have. I'm a Trans Ally and also a staunch Feminist, and even i have some disconnects between those two parts of myself so am often puzzling through questions myself.. the nearest similarity of lived experience i can come up with was when i was studying philosophy as a christian and began questioning my religious faith (i came out of that one as Pagan.. so... yeah. Smile) its never easy.

Its HARD to have a discussion and answer 'what is a woman' without falling into the trap of using stereotypes that as a feminist i absolutely detest, however, i reason it out that its the world I grew up in that is to blame there.. we grow up having 'this is female' and 'this is male' pounded into us by our parents, schools, grown ups, society, from a time when sex/gender were the same thing to the overwhelming majority of people.

We've had our head stuffed full of stereotypes on what makes a woman, and what makes a man from the word go.. so as the situation and world evolves around us, are lacking the language and experience to explain what 'woman' and 'man' is without using that language and accepted stereotypes that we've grown up with.

I wish i could find the words to say what is its about me that makes me go 'yes i am a woman' beyond my chromosomes, genitalia and identity, but i can't.. and i also can't explain WHY someone else feels a disconnect between their biological sex and gender, because i've never personally experienced it.

All i can do is have empathy, and try to understand that they obviously feel, for whatever reason, that their sense of self doesn't match their outward biological appearance, and be accepting of that, to use their preferred pronouns, their new names, while i muddle through some of my own thoughts and feelings on it.

I'm happy to share bathroom space with a transwoman, but i'm also aware some people aren't.

I have difficulty accepting transwomen in biological womens sport, because i can see/understand the science on how our physical chromosomal make up gives biologically male bodies an advantage.. but i can also understand the upset for someone who doesn't FEEL male in any way shape or form.

I have no issue in the use of inclusive language around childbirth because i personally don't feel that words can erode my womanhood or my identity.. but i CAN see some of the arguments about the erosion of 'woman' for some people.

I dont have the answers, for me i just work on the ideals of how i live my life in being loving, accepting and kind, and go from there while trying to muddle through things that puzzle me.

merrymouse · 03/03/2021 19:07

That would be individual to the person. There is no right or wrong way to be a woman, last I checked

I’m pretty sure that I would be in medical danger if a doctor had the wrong notes and assessed test results as though I were a man.

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 03/03/2021 19:07

Thanks LangClegsInSpace, it's a bit clearer in my head now.

PurpleHoodie · 03/03/2021 19:07

Not being funny but really, REALLY go and have a look at the FWR pensions thread.

UK women could find themselves tens of thousands of pounds richer.

(Not going to argue the toss about what the DWP thinks a woman is. They have the claimants sex on record)

££££

Waspnest · 03/03/2021 19:08

I don't think you can can quote me because apparently the post has been deleted Confused

BaronessWrongCrowd · 03/03/2021 19:10

@BarbaraofKent I was told that my first post was transphobic and threatening. Still waiting for an answers from that person beyond because it is. MNHQ says it's fine. Who knows. I've seen lots of TWAW without any explanation as to why that do not involve feelings. I've seen lots of calling posters Cis when they have asked repeatedly not to be referred to as such and yet they carry on. People telling us we have a gender identity then ignoring those who state we don't. I even asked how they would feel if it were the other way around. Silence.
It all seems to be a lot of air and no substance.

BarbaraofKent · 03/03/2021 19:10

@Mockolate

I have seen a few new faces on this thread, which is great, because contrary to popular belief, dissenting opinions are welcome.

That is just utter crap though, sorry.
I've been on MN years and there may be a handful of posters who are genuine and "middle of the road" and open to discussion, but in most threads on here, if you're not of the same opinion, you're in a minority and it's like pack mentality.
NOT because too soft to take different opinions or whatever, or being disagreed with.
It's more than that,

What is it?

I do take issue when people come onto threads all 'the transphobia round here is sickening, TWAW, you are all awful bigots' but then when they are asked basic questions that they can't answer they deflect for a bit and then fuck off the thread.

I am totally up for engaging on this, but I kind of expect that if I pose questions as part of that discussion, then they will be answered in good faith.

9toenails · 03/03/2021 19:10

TransRightsRCool:
It doesn't matter what definition I provide, you won't be satisfied. So I'll stick with this one: a woman is an adult human who identifies as a woman .

I suppose you really do not understand, TransRightsRCool, otherwise you would not post this. This supposed definition is circular.

So what? Allow me to try to explain.

Some people are saussurite-gabbros . Huh? You ask. ...

-- Let me tell you what a saussurite-gabbro is: a saussurite-gabbro is an adult human who identifies as a saussurite-gabbro .

Now you know what a saussurite-gabbro is? Nope. Because the definition is circular. You could only understand the definition if you already knew what a saussurite-gabbro is (which I will take a guess you did not). So the definition does not tell you what you wanted to know.

It is exactly the same with your definition of woman . It does not tell anyone what a woman is unless they already know what a woman is. It is a circular definition.

[Exercise : can you think why this might be called 'circular'? (Hint: who might be going round in circles trying to understand what a saussurite-gabbro (or a woman) is, just from the definition?)]

As I said, it was clear you did not understand this, TransRightsRCool, otherwise you would not have posted what you did. Do you understand it now? And, if so, are you a big enough person to admit it and try for another, non-circular, definition?

ool0n · 03/03/2021 19:11

"So if I don't identify as a woman... does that mean I'm not a woman?"

This is contradictory, identify as a woman means saying "I'm a woman" to the question "Are you a woman?". It seems you think "identify as" means something else. It just means expressing your identity.

OP posts:
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