To ask Radical Feminists about their views on BDSM?

[BeeDeeEssEm]

Name changed (though I'm not a troll / intentionally goady! Also ignore my silly username haha!).
This was just something I was mulling over and I thought; "I know, I'll ask Mumsnet."

I know Mumsnet has a large community of feminists (particularly Radical Feminists, apologies in case that term causes offense (?) but I'm not sure how to put it otherwise). I was wondering what the views on consensual BDSM are? A lot of it contains choking / aggression towards women but I was wondering if that is nullified by the consensual or enjoyment aspect.

Full disclosure I'm in my twenties and so things like BDSM are relatively normalised for me, but I know my mum was very anti-BDSM and she spoke about it a lot when I was in my teens (MN would probably like her & her other views I think!)

Sorry if that's a weird thing to ask, just curious for curiosity sake. I haven't formed an opinion of my own about it yet, and I only really hear Liberal Feminist perspectives on BDSM (and other sexual topics). Also sorry if this has already been done to death, I'm not sure!

Sorry didn't realise I turned on voting but

YABU: BDSM is bad / doesn't sit well with my beliefs
YANBU: BDSM is fine as it's consensual

Why not ask in the Feminism section then? Or is it sado-masochism making you post in aibu...

Why not ask in the Feminism section then? Or is it sado-masochism making you post in aibu...

Hahahaha that's very funny! I'm not sure, honestly AIBU usually gains more traction
( and I'm a little scared of accidentally saying the wrong thing in Feminism).

Why don't you tell us what your views are on BDSM? Not those of your friends, or what you think your views should be because you're in your twenties what do you personally think about it OP?

Why don't you tell us what your views are on BDSM? Not those of your friends, or what you think your views should be because you're in your twenties hmm what do you personally think about it OP?

I guess I've been socialised into it so it seems relatively normal to me. I think it can have really harmful side effects (like sexual expectations based on porn which can lead to people getting hurt, especially teens / otherwise inexperienced folk) but I guess in safe conditions between consenting adults I think it's OK.

That's my genuine viewpoint but it's always subject to change

I'm a feminist and have mixed views on it. In theory it's entirely up to a consenting adult what they choose to do sexually (within the law). However, from experience it tends to be abusive men taking advantage of vulnerable women. Cases I know of are child sexual abuse survivors re-enacting trauma, abusive men looking for a 'sub' who is simply being controlled and abused under the guise of a consensual fetish.

In my opinion, if both people are into it and there's no abuse, it's fine.

Call me a traditional, radical feminist but I thought BDSM tended to dominating and inflicting pain on men more than women, albeit for pleasure. I'd be a bit suspicious that power play, on the side of the already more physically, socialliy, financially dominant (generally speaking) is less likely to be consensual and more likely to be coersive. Less likely to be 'play' and more likely to be abusive. But if it's fun and consensual then who cares what others think?

I'm a bit dubious that BDSM is relatively normalised 'because you're in your 20's' I do think porn is relatively normalised however and young people are more likely to think choking is normal. Not the same as BDSM though.

Personally I though choking is gross, as is aggression - I don't relate either to BDSM.

I hear you username. I also think there's the added difficulty of struggling to determine what "true" consent is - e.g. for victims of childhood abuse it can be difficult to determine what is out of choice and what is out of obligation / a desire to please, if you see what I mean.

I usually have an attitude of "between consenting adults and in a safe manner" then it's none of my business so I can't really make my mind up about it. Thank you for posting, interesting to read!

Hahahaha that's very funny! I'm not sure, honestly AIBU usually gains more traction
( and I'm a little scared of accidentally saying the wrong thing in Feminism).

You do realise MNHQ don't lock feminists up in the feminism section?

Some of the people you're scared of, actually venture out into other topics < Clutches rosary beads >

I don't see what age has to do with it? I have 3 dds in their 20s who would all run a mile from BDSM, they think it's something sad old gimmers are into. I have no opinion on it either way, it wouldn't be for me but i couldn't care less what others are into as long as its consensual (and private, i don't want to know).

I'm a bit dubious that BDSM is relatively normalised 'because you're in your 20's' I do think porn is relatively normalised however and young people are more likely to think choking is normal. Not the same as BDSM though.

When I say "because I'm in my twenties" I mean it's normal in the context of my generation, not in the context of all the generations who have been in their twenties in the past (if that makes any sense). Not sure if that's controversial but I think it's true.

Personally I though choking is gross, as is aggression - I don't relate either to BDSM.

To my knowledge choking is part of the BDSM community (as a section of breath play I think). Can I ask what the difference is for you?

*You do realise MNHQ don't lock feminists up in the feminism section?

Some of the people you're scared of, actually venture out into other topics shock < Clutches rosary beads >*

I know, I know! I just don't want to jump in and unintentionally be goady by doing the "educate me" thing. Sorry if that's the wrong thing to do, wasn't sure of the appropriate etiquette!

I don't see what age has to do with it? I have 3 dds in their 20s who would all run a mile from BDSM, they think it's something sad old gimmers are into.

I'm just mentioning my experiences, I think it is generally more normalised (probably due to easy access to porn). Could be wrong, just giving some context!

BDSM covers a massive range of activities, so opinions are going to vary depending on the level of danger and physical harm a person comes to.

You can’t really choke someone safely.

You can’t brand someone and not leave them permanently maimed.

Both of which are a bit different to someone palming your arse.

@BeeDeeEssEm

I hear you username. I also think there's the added difficulty of struggling to determine what "true" consent is - e.g. for victims of childhood abuse it can be difficult to determine what is out of choice and what is out of obligation / a desire to please, if you see what I mean.

I usually have an attitude of "between consenting adults and in a safe manner" then it's none of my business so I can't really make my mind up about it. Thank you for posting, interesting to read!

I can only talk from my own experience. I'm aware that BDSM has very strict rules and people tend to know each other in the scene and abusers are quickly outed and ostracised.

I met several men claiming to be into BDSM when I was online dating (red flag as they wouldn't be on vanilla sites) and when I got talking to them, they were just abusers.

You pick up on a really good point and that's the issue of consent if you are a survivor of abuse. Coming from an abusive background, makes it really easy to get into abusive relationships. Having said that, some people are freely and consensually into BDSM and like I said, what goes on between consenting adults is up to them.

BDSM covers a massive range of activities, so opinions are going to vary depending on the level of danger and physical harm a person comes to.

I think that's interesting. Forgive me if I'm wrong but from what I know, some feminists take a strong stance against any porn as it is harmful to the individual and harmful to the community. If BDSM isn't considered as harmful (maybe due to accessibility?) to women other than in a physically practical sense then I think that's quite an interesting way of thinking.

I think that OP might be confusing BDSM - which has a whole community with rules and so on - with the kind of rough, degrading sex that you see in porn. I doubt the twenty somethings are all running around buying gimp masks and harnesses for BDSM parties. Could be wrong though.

I think that OP might be confusing BDSM - which has a whole community with rules and so on - with the kind of rough, degrading sex that you see in porn. I doubt the twenty somethings are all running around buying gimp masks and harnesses for BDSM parties. Could be wrong though.

BDSM is Bondage, Dominance, Sado-Masochism - rough & degrading can maybe play into that? Not necessarily gimp suits but I know a lot of my friendship circle are into choking / physical restrainment / various forms of sensory play etc. If these aren't part of BDSM consider me thoroughly misinformed!

Not a rad fem myself but hopefully you don’t mind me chipping in.

I’m generally not opposed to adults defining their own sexual boundaries and doing what they like in the bedroom. Kinks / fetishes / BDSM etc can all be practiced in a consensual and respectful way which is observant of boundaries and doesn’t cause harm.

But I think it’s important to recognise that consent doesn’t occur in a vacuum. I don’t think it’s enough to say ‘she said yes so it’s all good’ without examining the environment that led to that ‘yes’.

How many women (and possibly men) are agreeing to participate in BDSM because they think it’s expected of them, or because they feel peer / societal pressure to be sexually adventurous and willing to try anything. How many are trying to please a partner who has grown up watching violent porn? How many have watched violent porn themselves and found it becomes normalised?

Practiced properly BDSM should be completely anchored in lengthy, honest and respectful discussions about consent and boundaries, but a quick trawl through mumsnet proves how often women have their boundaries transgressed by men. I don’t accept that BDSM practitioners are immune from this.

I don’t want to claim that BDSM is always problematic because it’s not my job to tell other women what they like or decide for them that they’re being oppressed. But I think the broad picture to keep in mind is that BDSM occurs in a wider culture which doesn’t prioritise consent, and we should therefore be alive to the prospect that it could be problematic or abusive.

I don’t mean to suggest that the only concern in BDSM is the level of danger. There are questions to ask about its tropes - Nazi uniforms, the way the most degrading acts are carried out by black men on white women for a largely white male audience, police and army brutality tropes, school girls etc.

But all of that cultural stuff is taking a back seat at the moment because of the legal changes around choking due to the women who have died.

@BeeDeeEssEm

I'm a bit dubious that BDSM is relatively normalised 'because you're in your 20's' I do think porn is relatively normalised however and young people are more likely to think choking is normal. Not the same as BDSM though.

When I say "because I'm in my twenties" I mean it's normal in the context of my generation, not in the context of all the generations who have been in their twenties in the past (if that makes any sense). Not sure if that's controversial but I think it's true.

Personally I though choking is gross, as is aggression - I don't relate either to BDSM.

To my knowledge choking is part of the BDSM community (as a section of breath play I think). Can I ask what the difference is for you?

Yes - I know what you mean about your generation. But you hardly invented it!

I don't know loads about BDSM to be honest, but watching a lot of porn and then letting your partner choke you I don't think is anything more than that.

I think BDSM is more of an exploration of the dynamics between a couple, their bodies and different ways of experiencing pleasure. Like you say it's often a community thing and rather than worrying about what feminists think. I'd say that if you're not sure about something related to BDSM far better to reach out to them.

Yes - I know what you mean about your generation. But you hardly invented it!

Not suggesting that at all! I think I just mean it's somewhat less stigmatised / not as much of a taboo if that makes sense.

And Terracottasaur that's absolutely fine! The whole radfem angle is optional, I was just trying to get more of a variety of perspectives than I usually do - your post was very interesting to read

BDSM is Bondage, Dominance, Sado-Masochism - rough & degrading can maybe play into that? Not necessarily gimp suits but I know a lot of my friendship circle are into choking / physical restrainment / various forms of sensory play etc. If these aren't part of BDSM consider me thoroughly misinformed!

It's confusing (I think).... yes BDSM stands for those words but it seems to have taken on a whole new meaning which centres around a community type thing with a set of rules.

BDSM (in the community sense, with safewords and rules and whips and chains etc) is generally pretty cringey to most people I know in my age group (20s).

However you are correct that most of my friends (20s) want to be dominated in bed.

BUT there is a succinct difference.

I'm in a lot of smutty romance book groups and some of them are "darker" and people ask for all types of fucked up stuff with no judgement (it's one of the rules)... rough sex / dubious consent / spanking / toxically jealous "hero's" etc but with huge disclaimers saying NO BDSM!!! 🤷🏻‍♀️ they want it to happen as the fantasy, not having a fantasy about two people roleplaying their fantasy (does that make any sense??? 😂).

@BeeDeeEssEm

BDSM covers a massive range of activities, so opinions are going to vary depending on the level of danger and physical harm a person comes to.

I think that's interesting. Forgive me if I'm wrong but from what I know, some feminists take a strong stance against any porn as it is harmful to the individual and harmful to the community. If BDSM isn't considered as harmful (maybe due to accessibility?) to women other than in a physically practical sense then I think that's quite an interesting way of thinking.

Ah well that's different. You're asking about BDSM not porn.

As a feminist I think that porn is pretty terrible, not because it's porn but because of the way its made and distributed. That there aren't good standards for safety and wellbeing - mostly towards the women involved. Look at someone like August Ames. So many terrible stories and so many very young women. Plus porn is very male centred - on male pleasure. I'm not saying women don't enjoy it, but it's not made for women.

I don't see them as the same thing.

"I know a lot of my friendship circle are into choking / physical restrainment / various forms of sensory play etc"

Isn't all sex 'sensory play'?

Anyway, I'll leave you to it. Stay safe!

There is definitely a group of people who consider themselves to be the BDSM community.

But the vast majority of people who are interested in or participate in bondage, submission and domination or sado masochism are not part of that community or are interested in or subject to that community’s morality, guidelines or rules.

Ok Ill bite. Im a surgeon, not in the UK, but I used to work in a big city. I grew utterly sick of being consulted on a weekly basis about serious injuries women came in with that were as a result of "rough" sex, or BDSM, whatever you want to call it.

It seems to be a growing thing that women are expected to be into this, and people seem all too willing to downplay the risks of long term injury.

You are looking at a situation where safety relies on people showing careful and conscious restraint, but when they are more likely than ever to get distracted or loose control. Or where they just don`t give a fuck despite giving lip service otherwise beforehand.

An awful lot more harm happens than its advocates would have you believe.