To ask Radical Feminists about their views on BDSM?

[BeeDeeEssEm]

Name changed (though I'm not a troll / intentionally goady! Also ignore my silly username haha!).
This was just something I was mulling over and I thought; "I know, I'll ask Mumsnet."

I know Mumsnet has a large community of feminists (particularly Radical Feminists, apologies in case that term causes offense (?) but I'm not sure how to put it otherwise). I was wondering what the views on consensual BDSM are? A lot of it contains choking / aggression towards women but I was wondering if that is nullified by the consensual or enjoyment aspect.

Full disclosure I'm in my twenties and so things like BDSM are relatively normalised for me, but I know my mum was very anti-BDSM and she spoke about it a lot when I was in my teens (MN would probably like her & her other views I think!)

Sorry if that's a weird thing to ask, just curious for curiosity sake. I haven't formed an opinion of my own about it yet, and I only really hear Liberal Feminist perspectives on BDSM (and other sexual topics). Also sorry if this has already been done to death, I'm not sure!

In my opinion, if both people are into it and there's no abuse, it's fine.

This. Though to find the two is incredibly rare.

I’m quite interested in why you think Radical Feminist might be an offensive term?

Not sure, I noted someone compared the word radical to violence so I'm not sure if it's a controversial term. I just used it as it's the word I have linked to that end of the spectrum of feminism, if you see what I mean.

This feels like a research question for a thesis, or a journalist looking for an article. Neither of which is really what AIBU is for. It's very weird that you claim to be kink aware yet your total assumption on this post is that BDSM is male dom, fem sub. That's absolutely not the reality of the situation.

Might not be talking about Antonio Banderas if I were a researcher . I'm not necessarily claiming to be kink aware, I think I'm kink exposed (if there is such a thing) but I'd consider that different. I know BDSM is not all male dom, fem sub but I was interested in the perspective of feminists who are anti-porn, anti violence to women on the elements of BDSM that contain hurting women I guess.

And this Is why AIBU is filled with nonsense. Its a dumping ground for everything! Your question would get appropriate responses if you use the section that targets the people you are asking the question to.

Sorry, ignore my nonsense then. Maybe IABU

@CrotchBurn I definately agree with this. I think it also noteworthy that BDSM in porn/popular culture has occired alongside (gradual) increase in women's rights, increased social condemnation of DV, the Me Too movement etc. In a similar way in which searches for "racist porn" went up 3 fold at the start of the BLM protests this year and black adult performers on OF etc reported a massive jump in requests for them to do demeaning things/accept racial abuse. But hey, lets not kink shame! If a load of white men are sexually aroused by the site of black women being demeaned and racially abused then they can't help it and its probably only because they RESPECT those women so deeply.

BDSM isn’t my cup of tea, but each to her and his own. What goes on between consenting adults in private is not my business or my concern.

Women wanting to be dominated in sex is often symptomatic of having little confidence and agency in the bedroom. It's easy to just copy what you see in porn and go along with what the guy is doing. It's also easy to "get off" on the taboo of BDSM rather than actually figure out what really works for your body.

But purely in the context of maledom (yes I know femdom is huge and exists)... Don't you think it's curious that the rise in women wanting to be dominated may also coincide with the rise of women being the dominant person at work?

I've only had one relationship that lasted long enough for me to feel comfortable/ safe experimenting with that kind of dynamic... and I'd describe myself as the "dominant" one in all other aspects of life. It was me who was the breadwinner, me who had the corporate high pressure job etc. I had to ask him to take that control and honestly it felt good to give up that control.

the current obsession with male domination of women in the bedroom is stifling the ability of women to explore female-centric sex and I think it's a shame.

Again though this hasn't been my experience. Whenever we "played out" that dynamic, I'd class the sex as more female-centric than when we weren't, because it was all about me and my fantasies.

Given the choice I actually think more men want to be dominated in bed than do the dominating.

Maybe that's just me and the men I attract, but I've done the tinder scene too, and all these men wanting to recreate rough porn wasn't my experience at all.

I also did an apprenticeship in my late teens / early twenties so had 11 close-ish male friends, and even back then they were all under the impression than girls were a bit mental in bed.

This is an interesting article:

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.vice.com/amp/en/article/bm9w7v/why-are-so-many-women-searching-for-ultra-violent-porn

It accepts that women who "fantasise" about male domination/ violent sex are typically less repressed and have higher self esteem...

And then it goes on to question if they are seeking out the same type of porn because their boyfriends are coercing them into it?

That doesn't add up to me.

Though some like to use it as an insult, radical feminism is one of many branches of feminism - it's not an offensive term. It can be used to dismiss some feminists of all types or women in general for having certain opinions, but there is no other term for that branch of feminism.

A lot of comments I agree with already on the difference between identifying with a communty and doing certain acts, how the social encouragement of this can be linked to other social issues going on, and how the harm is so often dismissed.

The communities that identify with BDSM does play a role in how it's treated outside of it, and there are a lot of issues in that community and overlapping communities around power and how things 'should' be done or thought of that trickles out. That we're not meant to "'ick' someone else's fun" supports the ignoring of harm and the issues with out of bedroom power dynamics. Just because someone gets off on it doesn't make it ethical, but in some spaces, bedroom moral relavtism is not only the rule, but it can be an identity. I've been in entirely unrelated groups that had conversations on 'subspace' which outside of sex-related talk, I'd call a trauma response and the description of 'after care' as trauma bonding.

That people are encouraged to put a large part of their identity in what gets them off not only makes overlapping communities more sexualized, but it dismisses issues of discussing social systems involved or well-known issues of sex as a method of self-harm and hypersexualization as a trauma response. I have CPTSD, and I've dealt with both, and I think it can be very damaging to perpetuate ideas that those are part of who someone is, especially to young adults. Sexualizing trauma is well written about reaction, it can help people cope in the short term, but it's unhealthy and causes harm in the long-term & it isn't part of who someone is.

I think there are some risky things like this comment: "watching a lot of porn and then letting your partner choke you I don't think is anything more than that. " when research into this has shown that it isn't so much a matter of "letting", but that this is often happening to women without consent prior to or during the act. It's becoming an expectations, along with similar aggressive acts like hair yanking also often seen in many types of porn. "Vanilla" sex is deemed boring, terrible, and we're encouraged to "spice things up" and "be adventurous" through acts that risk harm, endurance is spoken on in how much pain someone can take which really should not be part of cultural ideas around sex.

Sex in so much media is treated as something done to someone or for someone - BDSM language is rife with this - rather than people enjoying something with each other. While certain acts that can be viewed as BDSM can happily fall under that enjoyment, the shifts in cultural views around sex and the social systems that have pushed the shifts are a concern to many. As an example, I have an old Men's Health sex book from the 90s and in it's section on anal sex, it goes at length to discuss that it's a tiny minority of women who can orgasm or really feel pleasure that way so very few want that as part of their regular sex life, that if tried with the woman as the penetrated partner (which was the assumption in the book) there are safety and comfort considerations to make, and other things that I think a few decades on I think shows far more consideration of women than I find in many resources aimed at women or even teenage girls today. I'd rather my teenagers read that than what's been in things like Teen Vogue.

You're equating a lot of different things with BDSM OP. You seem to be conflating women being sexually abused as BDSM. You've got people here talking about women being raped and murdered by abusers as BDSM. Violent porn that degrades and abuses women and girls is not BDSM.

BDSM is about power dynamics and kink in a mutually respecting relationship. There are safe words and clear communication around boundaries outside the bedroom. As others have said, many men enjoy being submissives. It encompasses a lot of different types of sexuality and role play.

A teenager experiencing a prolapse because her shit of a boyfriend coerced her into rough, anal sex is abuse not kink. Choking is horrendously dangerous and can cause death quite quickly. People copying dangerous acts they've seen in porn, is not BDSM.

Consensual, respectful kink is very, very different to women being anally raped or choked to death by abusers.

As a feminist, I don't condone abusive, violent, sexual abuse of women or girls. In fact, due to the violent nature and easy accessibility of violent porn, there needs to be open and clear communication around boundaries and consent. Those little fuckers choking and raping their girlfriends because they could mplelet dehumanise women, need to be locked up.

BDSM is as varied as the people who take part.

As long as everyone taking part is of legal age, consenting, and happy, then as far as I'm concerned what they do is none of my business.

I'm a feminist (41) which, to me, means I recognise that we live in a patriarchal power structure that does not favour women and girls. As a feminist, I centre women and girls in my thinking - does x help them or hinder them? Who actually benefits from x? I centre women and girls in much the same way that a BLM activist centres people of colour. This is very different from liberal 'choice' feminism, which centres on personal choice and disconnects those choices from the wider patriarchal environment and power structure in which those choices are made. Nowadays this makes me a rad fem apparently, but I'm cool with that ...

From my personal experience, BDSM has gone from being a niche activity (when I was a teenager) to one that has been normalised as mainstream due to internet porn. The majority of internet porn is aggressive towards women and places men in a dom role and women in a sub role. If you're in your 20s your main exposure to sex is via internet porn and this type of aggressive sex is the norm, your starting point as it were. So there is a strong element of social conditioning going on here. This is what sex is 'supposed' to look like etc.

Like you I agree that what happens between consenting adults is their business. Exploring your sexuality and sexual options is healthy and amazing. But as a 'rad fem' I can't disassociate the number of young women who are apparently down for being dominated from this social conditioning. Furthermore, as a rad fem, I ask myself who in a patriarchal system benefits from normalising sex where male aggression and domination is normalised and male pleasure comes first? Who would benefit from normalising sex that centres on female pleasure and why is that not what we see in porn?

By focusing on personal choice and not stepping back to see the bigger picture Liberal/choice/'sex positive' feminism simply doesn't ask these questions. It doesn't centre women and girls as a class and reduces feminism down to personal choice, without reference to the structures within which those decisions are formed and made. It actually very much reinforces the patriarchal power structure, with a side order of cool girl pressure to be 'sex positive'.

So - radical feminism doesn't mean "extreme" feminism, or "man-hating" feminism, it actually means radical in the sense of "getting to the root of."

So the interesting question for a radical feminist to ask IMO is not "are there some individuals who like this and is it okay - their kink may not be my kink but that's okay?" (which is presumably how a liberal feminist would frame it).

A radical feminist (I'm probably on the fringe of being a radical feminist) would ask "why in social terms is BDSM popular, is it freely chosen or is it pushed on women by social expectations, why does the gender balance seem to have changed (as someone pointed out upthread from men being on the receiving end to women being on the receiving end), why has it become normalised, why does it overlap with general violence against women to such an extent?"

Take choking. Back when I was young, "erotic autoasphyxiation" was something men did largely to themselves. And there was a class element - I remember joking to a friend "Why is it when you see the Sport headline MP found hanged in basque and suspenders you just know it's going to be a Tory MP?" It was also a practice considered extreme even by my friends who were into BDSM, because it's a practice which cannot be done safely.

But now it seems to have become part of the normal repertoire of heterosexual sex - and I've read lots of posts on dating threads here about women finding first time they DTD with a new partner, he strangled them without discussing or asking first.

A radical feminist would place this within the context of ever more extreme, misogynistic porn, and a general backlash against feminism in particular and women in general. Why is it being done by men to women, as an almost expected act, often without bothering to ask first? What role does porn and/or erotic literature like 50 Shades play in persuading women that it's something they should like or at least should be prepared to try? How much of them engaging in the practice is because it really does it for them, and how much of it is because they think it's what you do to demonstrate to the man in your life that you're up for it and not some sort of prude?

To an individual woman who said "but I like it..." I'd say "(a) What aspect of it and (b) Why?"

If the answer to "what" is "the head rush" for fuck's sake just buy yourself some poppers - it's safer.

Re. the answer to "why" my own hunch is it's a form of society-wide Stockholm syndrome. We as a sex know we're massively vulnerable to male sexual violence, so we (collective we - not all of us obviously but a substantial subsection) collude in the eroticisation of female submission in order to turn the reality into a (twisted) fairy-tale version we can live with. I would advise any woman who says she likes choking to really sit down and (a) do the Freedom Programme to make sure she can tell the difference between BDSM and abuse and (b) have a long think about why submission fantasies do it for her, and whether there are any other fantasies she could engage in instead.

I'm in my twenties and so things like BDSM are relatively normalised for me

Ah bless.

You do realise the swinging sixties was your DGM's generation and sex in all its forms wasn't new then either.

I didn't realise it was a community that people would avoid even if they participated in some of the acts.

Yes, they are quite sniffy about what they consider "real" BDSM, and I think often suggest that abusers are "not really part of the community", which I think is problematic.

There was a webaite called something like We didn't consent to this. Terrible reading. All women killed by men who got to write the story after the woman's death.

It was started by a FWR poster following threads on MN.

@BeeDeeEssEm

I hear you username. I also think there's the added difficulty of struggling to determine what "true" consent is - e.g. for victims of childhood abuse it can be difficult to determine what is out of choice and what is out of obligation / a desire to please, if you see what I mean.

I usually have an attitude of "between consenting adults and in a safe manner" then it's none of my business so I can't really make my mind up about it. Thank you for posting, interesting to read!

Not much help to you, OP but I am a 45 year old woman and that’s just how I feel, too. I don’t want to police what people do but I also suspect some of it is far from healthy, psychologically.

@C8H10N402 good point about nothing new!

Sadism after all gets its name from the Marquis de Sade and his 120 Days of Sodom - and the truly scary thing about it is that it's fairly well documented that he raped and sexually tortured servants and peasant land workers on his estates in real life www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/marquis-de-sade-rebel-pervert-rapist-hero-9862270.html.

The idea of nice fluffy consensual BDSM as an environment where everyone has talked through hard and soft limits beforehand and has a safe word - as Eresh says, that's a myth more honoured in the breach than the observance. In real life, it's the perfect cover for genuine abuse.

And it enables men literally to get away with murder - "but she liked it rough" is increasingly being used as a defence in murder and manslaughter cases. See for e.g. the "We Can't Consent to This" campaign twitter.com/Wecantconsentto?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

BDSM on the most part is men being the sissy/sub

If anything would the power not be empowering for a woman?

Having been in a relationship with a man who considers himself a sub and has a sissification fetish, I can answer this one: No, it's not empowering for the woman, because it's all on his terms.

As for bdsm... Sadism is taking pleasure in causing pain. Masochism is taking pleasure in being hurt. Neither indicate a healthy mindset. And the more you indulge, and strengthen your mental associations via orgasm, the more entrenched in needing to cause or feel pain you're likely to get.

I'm with PPs; consent doesn't exist in a vacuum, and bdsm is the fetishisation of sexual violence. With my radfem hat on, how could these not be problematic?

A mysoginist justice system that, not so long ago, accepted 'nagging' as an acceptable defence for killing your wife - is responsible for abusive men getting away with murder.

I am old , and the epitome of vanilla .
A close female relative joined BDSM and became the live-in slave to her master . She kept it a secret as much as she could but images I found deeply disturbing and distressing occasionally leaked onto her 'public' fb wall .
I don't like stuff that blurs love and sex with pain , fear , humiliation and degradation even if these things are carried out under the heading of consent . To me , it warps our understanding of love , good sex , trust and normal mutually supportive relationships .
The thought of what that man did to her , and of what she had convinced herself was a lifestyle choice distresses me still .
She died ...and I have no more words .

Sorry, ignore my nonsense then. Maybe IAB
Its a good post as are a lot are on Aibu but a lot but I think if you wanted radical feminists to reply you go to where they mostly are.
I have seen several times over the years that quite a few have said they don't bother with the other boards so you are missing out a good selection of women with views that are worth engaging with.

You're equating a lot of different things with BDSM OP. You seem to be conflating women being sexually abused as BDSM. You've got people here talking about women being raped and murdered by abusers as BDSM. Violent porn that degrades and abuses women and girls is not BDSM

I don't think I've equated it with sexual abuse - some of it contains sexual aggression but I've said in my view as long as it's between consenting adults it's OK. If people would like to discuss rape and murder as an additional point to be had, then that's fine in my book, I'm not here to police people's opinions.

Ah bless.
You do realise the swinging sixties was your DGM's generation and sex in all its forms wasn't new then either.

I think there may be a hint of purposefully missing the point here. I'm aware it's not new (nor have I said that), but I think it has become increasingly normalised. If you disagree then that's fine, but let's please avoid "ah bless"ing me. Thank you

I have seen several times over the years that quite a few have said they don't bother with the other boards so you are missing out a good selection of women with views that are worth engaging with.

I can ask to have it moved over if that's the general consensus?

I can ask to have it moved over if that's the general consensus?
Yes
I think you report your post and put it in the comments section.

I think you report your post and put it in the comments section.

Okay fab, I'll do that now!

as far as i understand it BDSM is supposed to be a sexual fantasy so if it’s women dominating and degrading men i’m all for it. it’s the other way round, however, then that’s not a fantasy. it’s just real life.

Fab we are now in Feminism! Apologies if the title and mentions of voting now seems strange