To ask Radical Feminists about their views on BDSM?

[BeeDeeEssEm]

Name changed (though I'm not a troll / intentionally goady! Also ignore my silly username haha!).
This was just something I was mulling over and I thought; "I know, I'll ask Mumsnet."

I know Mumsnet has a large community of feminists (particularly Radical Feminists, apologies in case that term causes offense (?) but I'm not sure how to put it otherwise). I was wondering what the views on consensual BDSM are? A lot of it contains choking / aggression towards women but I was wondering if that is nullified by the consensual or enjoyment aspect.

Full disclosure I'm in my twenties and so things like BDSM are relatively normalised for me, but I know my mum was very anti-BDSM and she spoke about it a lot when I was in my teens (MN would probably like her & her other views I think!)

Sorry if that's a weird thing to ask, just curious for curiosity sake. I haven't formed an opinion of my own about it yet, and I only really hear Liberal Feminist perspectives on BDSM (and other sexual topics). Also sorry if this has already been done to death, I'm not sure!

There is a reason why non fatal strangulation is to become a crime soon OP, it's because it's dangerous and violent.

Men are using BDSM as an excuse for murdering women.

@Cagedbirdsinging

I am old , and the epitome of vanilla . A close female relative joined BDSM and became the live-in slave to her master . She kept it a secret as much as she could but images I found deeply disturbing and distressing occasionally leaked onto her 'public' fb wall . I don't like stuff that blurs love and sex with pain , fear , humiliation and degradation even if these things are carried out under the heading of consent . To me , it warps our understanding of love , good sex , trust and normal mutually supportive relationships . The thought of what that man did to her , and of what she had convinced herself was a lifestyle choice distresses me still . She died ...and I have no more words .

This is exactly how I feel, though I am probably closer to the OP's age than to yours. I've not always been in the habit of considering myself a feminist, but I'm more at home with radical than liberal. One of my main concerns in feminism is protecting women and girls from harm

I am quite happy to be considered an ignorant prude on this, but I love sex - not fluffy, supergentle, look-into-eachothers-eyes-and-ask-may-I-kiss-you sex, but just unselfconscious, happy, trusting, two-adult-humans-at-the-back-of-the-cave sex. To me, there is something wrong if people want to bring humiliation into it. It saddens me that anyone would want to treat another that way, or consent to be treated that way, or watch it. I also don't think it can be hermetically sealed in the bedroom and not affect - or be affected by - an individual's wider life and society.

So sorry to hear about your friend

*relative, rather

To the statement that BDSM is between private individuals and of no outsiders concern, how do we protect women from this in the legal system?

*I think the current upswing in BDSM has fuck all to do with genuine curiosity and is just another symptom of the way in which women's status and empowerment is moving backwards.

I put it up there with the whole twerking, fillers, hyper sexualised music industry, overly feminised attitude to womanhood that has been emerging over the past decade. It's no coincidence IMO that women being pressured into porn star-like fashion trends aligns with a rise in BDSM interest and young men thinking stuff like choking and anal are "standard".*

^This. It seems that there is virtually nothing, including women's actual identity, that cannot be subverted to the rights of men to make their increasingly public sexual urges the centre of, and the justification for, everything.

Well, it depends.

I've given up trying to work out what kind of feminist I am.

I had a fair amount of experience of working with people in the BDSM community in my twenties.

That is a very, very large community. It encompasses everything from women buying feathery underwear at Ann Summers to people exploring power dynamics in a relationship to severe, dangerous and even life threatening practises (see Operation Screwdriver, I think it was - long time ago).

I found BDSM people [these are sex people, Lynn] were on the whole very aware of power issues and more open to discussing them. So the theory is that because power hierarchies and dynamics are more openly acknowledged and negotiated and discussed, it has the potential to be empowering for women and even to guard against abuses of power.

I did find lots of troubled people in the community, although that could probably be said of many communities. I think often people are/were attracted to it as a kind of therapeutic activity. The idea of 'safe spaces', 'safe words', contracts etc all can be appealing to someone who has fear and anxiety about relationships. I think this tended to be a reason to get involved, though, not a result of the BDSM.

Although I haven't been anywhere near the scene in many years, some things I've seen in mainstream media have suggested to me that it may have changed somewhat:

I do think that the internet/porn/social media has attracted some nastier, more dangerous elements and men to the scene.

'50 shades of grey' described a very unhealthy abusive relationship, yet has been taken as a BDSM manual, unfortunately. I think it's been damaging and possibly dangerous. (full disclosure, it was so shittily written I couldn't get past the first three chapters, however I did read some interesting/worrying commentary on the plotline).

There is definitely scope for abuse and violence within the BDSM community, but whether its any worse than among the general populace, I have no idea.

As someone in a respectful happy marriage, with young children, who also enjoys and engages BDSM (from both sides of it), I think the perception of it being rare that it can exist in just the bedroom, that it's rare that both parties are enthusiastic, that it's rare that it's actually in a loving and respectful relationship etc is probably because we fly under the radar a lot.

Well if it's that rare, then I've got very lucky ticking all 3 of those boxes.

Apart from a few drunken conversations with friends, no one knows IRL about this, because why would they - it's no one else's business.
And I can't imagine that my experience are that exceptionally unusual, so there must be others, probably quite a lot of us, that are the same.

And so no one would know how common or rare it is, because it can be just as much in a marriage, as parading on a rainbow coloured float wearing a gimp suit during pride.

It's because our relationship is free of power struggles/imbalances in real life that it feels safe to experiment with it in private. I love our sex life, but I couldn't imagine it personally in anything less than a respectful relationship. Anything less and it would feel abusive.

@bourbonne...thank you .
She is no longer in any sort of pain .

I’ve created an account just to comment here! I’m in my early 30s but spent a large portion of my 20s in an emotionally abusive relationship. My ex was heavily into BDSM & regularly pressured me into engaging in it, changing previously agreed boundaries etc. Was definitely a theme where things became more extreme in the bedroom as I got closer to leaving him. He enjoyed inflicting pain & relished in leaving marks (blood blisters). So I’m pretty suspicious of libfem fawning over bdsm & knee jerk accusations of kink shaming.

I personally will kink shame the shit out of school girl fetishists, people who get off on Nazi regalia and other racist shite, and those balding creeps in little feathery nighties who occupy the #girlslikeus hashtag on Twatter.

As for strangulation- from looking at the dating threads on MN, that has fuck all to do with consent and a lot to do with men doing it to women in bed as a matter of course. The porn sick pieces of shit.

That we didn't consent to this is pretty sobering reading. Particularly sad for families whose daughter's, sister's name is dragged through the mud.

Personally, I think the mainstreaming of 50 Shades, Twilight coercive/abusive relationships has a lot to answer for.

That coupled with 'everyday' porn and objectifying of women as a whole in society.

Think I peaked at horrified when two nearly naked women being used as a table in a Jason Derulo video last year. Shown in the middle of the day.

Think young women in general are being led astray by the centering of males in their feminism aka Emma Watson.

I also think a lot of the consent comes down to poor self esteem. And agree with other posters that say none of this exists in a vacuum.

I think the whole concept of kink shaming is ridiculous, as is the idea that the specifics of what you do sexually are somehow to be paraded as a proud and important part of your identity, and something other people should respect. It's not identity, it's just sex.

People have every right to not want to hear about your sexual practices, or even to consider them repellant or abusive. You have the right to consider them a prude, but you don't have the right to stop them 'kink shaming' you. As far as I'm aware, sexuality (in the sense of which sex you choose to have relationships with) is a protected characteristic. What you actually do with your partner is not.

@PoleToPole

Ok I`ll bite. I`m a surgeon, not in the UK, but I used to work in a big city. I grew utterly sick of being consulted on a weekly basis about serious injuries women came in with that were as a result of "rough" sex, or BDSM, whatever you want to call it.

It seems to be a growing thing that women are expected to be into this, and people seem all too willing to downplay the risks of long term injury.

You are looking at a situation where safety relies on people showing careful and conscious restraint, but when they are more likely than ever to get distracted or loose control. Or where they just don`t give a fuck despite giving lip service otherwise beforehand.

An awful lot more harm happens than its advocates would have you believe.

OP - i don't think you commented on this post from PoletoPole ? They're not the only doctor to speak about the appalling injuries regularly happening to girls and young women who have been gaslit into believing that 'rough sex' is normal, acceptable and OK.

Just wondering what you think?

Sexual preferences aren't formed in a vacuum - the culture that's around you influences you, even if you don't realise it.

In an article I was reading, the author said that for her, BDSM wasn't just about pain and being dominated, but the after care and tenderness her Dom showed her, and I find that quite saddening. Being shown care and tenderness should be an integral part of sex and relationships, not conditional on bearing pain or degradation. Porn has stigmatised 'vanilla' sex - i.e. anything that's focused on mutual pleasure, with the humour, lack of ego and selflessness that you need to have a rewarding intimate relationship.

Kink shaming is an odd one.

I daresay some people are on the defensive, when they are deep down uncomfortable with things they claim to be 'safe, sane, and consensual'.

OP also hasn’t commented on my post asking how we protect those of us that aren’t into BDSM and who are subjected to horrific injury and mental pain by men who are. Then use the wokery of kink shaming to get off Scott free.

As far as I can see the only post OP has responded to is the one pointing out that (a) we were all in our twenties once and (b) while each generation of bright young things likes to think they were the first to invent sex, in fact the human race has been doing it since forever (which is kind of how the human race continues) and has probably been doing the kinky stuff since forever (see Ancient Greek redware pottery passim).

The other thing I'd say, having been in my twenties once some time back in the mists of prehistory is it's pretty much the peak man-pleasing period of a woman's life. In our twenties, most of us want to get laid, we're needy, we put up with all sorts of crap. As you get older, you give continually less and less fucks what men think of you, until post menopause you realise you'd probably have been happier with a vibrator and donor sperm all along. It's incredibly liberating.

I have no idea whether I count as a radical feminist, but I have noticed that the internet discourse around BDSM has radically (see what I did there?) since 2000.

We've gone from proud kinksters posting on mainstream boards that there was a difference between activity that caused harm and activity that caused temporary pain to... people shouting "but it's MUH KINK!" if another poster utters a single word about the raised risk of death that comes with having one's breathing obstructed.

By this logic, all I have to do to demonise people telling me about any safety risk is to say it improves my orgasms. Motorbike helmets? But maybe I find it utterly orgasmic to ride a motorbike without a helmet before shagging someone! Kink-shamer!

Also, OP and anyone else.

If I told you that I had found cutting myself helped me with my mental health, what would you say? If I told you I had a tendency to disconnect with my emotions, and hurting myself put me back in touch with them and then provided a cathartic release for them? Would you be supportive?

What if I, or someone else, wrote an article encouraging other people struggling with mental health to try cutting themselves?

Would you be okay with that?

Hold that thought. Then read this.

Entitled BDSM Can Provide Profound Healing Experiences
www.vice.com/amp/en/article/nee9yg/bsdm-can-provide-profound-healing-experiences?

Why is self-harm being sold as a healthy coping strategy if you get another person to do it to you?

I saw a very pertinent cartoon a few months back on this, Potholes.

Two panels, side by side...

Group of middle aged women in the pub. Woman saying "He always says it's my fault, that I make him do it. He broke a rib last week. But afterwards he's always so sad and brings me flowers to make up to me. Then everything's okay for a few weeks." Chorus of "Leave the bastard..."

Group of young women in a wine bar. Woman saying "We always discuss limits and he says he'll only ever do things I make him do, the sub is in control. Last week we got a bit carried away and he damaged my hyoid bone. But he always provides such great aftercare." Chorus of "Aw, sweet, he's a keeper."

Very interesting how the OP has completely ignored the post by the doctor who mentions the numerous women they have treated after suffering violent injuries during BDSM 'roleplay'

@PotholeParadies that vice article is so disturbing. Awful

From the Vice article:

Being able to reclaim your autonomy and have thoughtful conversations about the specific activities that you do and don't want to engage in with a partner who listens to and respects those boundaries, she says, can be transformative.

After I was raped, I was hypersexualised. It felt like I was taking control back and "reclaiming my autonomy", even though I put myself in multiple risky situations, because basically I didn't give a fuck. With your boundaries having been completely and comprehensively trampled on, how are you supposed to know which partner is abusive and preying on your vulnerability and which is "a partner listening to and respecting your boundaries", exactly?

Eresh .

I have so many friends who report exactly the same thing - becoming hypersexualised as a desperate attempt to take back control and ending up being further abused as a result.

Thank you Cara